I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for example: <br><br><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br>
<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
<a href="http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages">http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br>
<br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps: DTN, I did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one songle<br>
objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect<br>
views about disasters and about our networks.<br>
<br>
so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br>
1. how many do you need<br>
2. what is their cost<br>
3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br>
4. how long do their power sources last<br>
5. what are your plans for maintenance<br>
6. how often are they deployed?<br>
what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br>
hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br>
7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br>
<br>
<br>
by the way, you said MANET again -<br>
I said we modified this 12 years back or<br>
more to do DTN -<br>
please stop repeateing incorrect<br>
ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br>
<br>
you are confused.<br>
<br>
In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=<a href="mailto:Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
s Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<div><div class="h5"> >><br>
>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>>><br>
>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>>><br>
>>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>>><br>
>>> One is to build standby cell power<br>
>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br>
>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>>Cool.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is parallel in<br>
>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get either of<br>
>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br>
>>><br>
>>> However, its beside the point:<br>
>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want to<br>
>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br>
>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br>
>>> who have safe water, dry<br>
>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>>No I don't do this mistake.<br>
>><br>
>>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***.<br>
>><br>
>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br>
>><br>
>>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> What people building DTNs<br>
>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>>> self organising set of people to<br>
>>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
>>> (because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>>><br>
>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists -<br>
>>><br>
>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously<br>
>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).<br>
>>><br>
>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will only<br>
>>> be<br>
>>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I would<br>
>>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for trying to<br>
>>> get<br>
>>> >>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy for<br>
>>> others<br>
>>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they should do.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg,<br>
>>> request<br>
>>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I am not<br>
>>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some people<br>
>>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my pocket.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Therefore:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will broadcast<br>
>>> an<br>
>>> >>address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>===<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, we may<br>
>>> not<br>
>>> >>even need a balloon:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
<div class="im"> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
</div> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=<br>
<div class="im"> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=<br>
>>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=<br>
>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
</div> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>One is to build standby cell power<br><br>
>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br>
>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br>
>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br>
>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br>
>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br><br>
>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br>
>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br>
>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...<br></blockq=<br>
>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=<br>
>>;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is parallel in=<br>
>><br><br>
>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out how to get either =<br>
>>of<br><br>
>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>However, its beside the point:<br><br>
>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want to<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br><br>
>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br><br>
>>who have safe water, dry<br><br>
>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =<br>
>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve for the =<br>
>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing but a res=<br>
>>earch exercise to me. <br><br>
>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=<br>
>>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=<br>
>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>>What people building DTNs<br><br>
>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br><br>
>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br>
>>self organising set of people to<br><br>
>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br>
>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br>
>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br><br>
>>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br><br>
>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br>
>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists -=<br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br><br>
>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br><br>
>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that&#39;s obviously<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left then, though).<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br><br>
>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br><br>
>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; playing<br><br>
>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a></a><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com">4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,=<br>
>> Par<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
</div> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET wi=<br>
>>ll only be<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I=<br>
>> would<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for tr=<br>
>>ying to get<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional strangers.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy=<br>
>> for others<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they sh=<br>
>>ould do.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken le=<br>
>>g, request<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but =<br>
>>I am not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some =<br>
>>people<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I don&#39;t have this in my=<br>
>> pocket.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will br=<br>
>>oadcast an<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for real help.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking problem. It is about education.<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough,=<br>
>> we may not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=</a><br>
>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target=3D=<br>
>>"_blank"><a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=</a><br>
>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"=<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-" target="_blank">http://www.content-</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://based-science.org" target="_blank">based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>