<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing<br>
phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and<br>
saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for<br>
somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational<br>
awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive<br></blockquote><div><br>Well actually MANET is dangerous. Someone should inform the red cross<br>that it is not really a solution so that they think about real solutions. <br>
<br>You still don't answer my question about network partitions. <br><br>We are talking about human life here cost is not an issue. Billions of dollars<br>are spent for the army, you worry about balloon cost? This is not a research<br>
problem this is an education problem.<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when<br>
you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system<br>
tp provide routing between translation points - this is something<br>
we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980,<br>
there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g.<br>
tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25<br>
network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA<br>
and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a<br>
name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down<br>
to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol<br>
route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name<br>
based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned,<br>
Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage<br>
you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original<br>
document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to<br>
build such a system.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br><br>20 years ago we didn't have the IP address shortage problem. I solve this problem. <br><br>There is no scuh thing as lucky design, like I did this 20 years ago for problem X we can <br>use it now for problem Y. There is no such thing. <br>
<br>You were trying to solve other problems. <br><br>I am trying to solve a different problem.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
In missive <CACQuieZsrj5i1XJoruVLam_O4cNYsk0ZU_OvbY_sG0WEx_r+og@mail.gmail.<br>
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee<br>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>><br>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity<br>
>>><br>
>>> i dont.<br>
>>><br>
>>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br>
>>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are<br>
>>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...<br>
>>><br>
>>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and<br>
>>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see<br>
>>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),<br>
>>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with<br>
>>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot<br>
>>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> something mon golfier frere hasn't<br>
>>><br>
>>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is<br>
>>> where and what resources are still working would be good<br>
>>><br>
>>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters<br>
>>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big<br>
>>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in<br>
>>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
>>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br>
>>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br>
>>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br>
>>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br>
>>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br>
>>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br>
>>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br>
>>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br>
>>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>the balloons are visible here<br>
>>> >>><a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a><br>
>>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>In missive<br>
>>> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>> >><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied<br>
>>> in<br>
>>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> >>> >>> hand<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,<br>
>>> japan,<br>
>>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you<br>
>>> desribed<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br>
>>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to<br>
>>> work.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a<br>
>>> great<br>
>>> >>> >>> target for the other side<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really<br>
>>> research,<br>
>>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can<br>
>>> just<br>
>>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<br>
>>> >>> >>infrastructure<br>
>>> >>> >>network.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> In missive<br>
>>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
>>> ARPA Packet<br>
>>> >>> >>> radio<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,<br>
>>> vehicular<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a> is, by<br>
>>> definition, for<br>
>>> >>> >>> anything<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all<br>
>>> communications,<br>
>>> >>> >>> not the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this<br>
>>> question?<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what<br>
>>> it is used<br>
>>> >>> >>> for.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the<br>
>>> >>>Internet" but I<br>
>>> >>> >>> am<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you<br>
>>> choose<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>><a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>> >>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior<br>
>>> work (many<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it<br>
>>> is not<br>
>>> >>> >>> relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
>>> >>>or has any<br>
>>> >>> >>> hope<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> of<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> --<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>quote"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
>>> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft@cl=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>.<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> >>> >>> style=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
>>> >>>ARPA Packet<br>
>>> >>> >>> rad=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,<br>
>>> vehicular<br>
>>> >>> >>> networ=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> >>> >>> target=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we<br>
>>> can<br>
>>> >>> >>> imagine and=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the<br>
>>> intersection<br>
>>> >>> >>> of o=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars<br>
>>> >>>Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>> >>> >>> &lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf@gmail=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at<br>
>>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>>> >>> >>> Cro=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> >>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
>>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> >>> >>> #cc=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser<br>
>>> syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I<br>
>>> didn&#39;t<br>
>>> >>> >>> chang=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did<br>
>>> we really<br>
>>> >>> >>> ask t=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>> >>> >>> themselves wh=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>> >>> >>> Internet&quot;=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> >>> >>> 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you<br>
>>> choose<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>blank"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>>> </a>&gt;,<br>
>>> >>> >>> Par<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the<br>
>>> relevant<br>
>>> >>> >>> prior=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has<br>
>>> >>>been, or has<br>
>>> >>> >>> any=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> </a><b=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>r><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span<br>
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>> </a><br><=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a<br>
>>> href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> >>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> jon<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
>>> >>>Crowcroft =<br>
>>> >>> >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> >>>wrote:<br><blockquote=<br>
>>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> >>>#ccc soli=<br>
>>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied<br>
>>> in<br><br>
>>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have<br>
>>> to<br><br>
>>> >>> >>hand<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,<br>
>>> japan,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you<br>
>>> desribed<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the<br>
>>> >>>users&#39; task=<br>
>>> >>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare<br>
>>> >>>them.<br><br>=<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt<br>
>>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated<br>
>>> >>>users in a di=<br>
>>> >>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest<br>
>>> >>>of the netw=<br>
>>> >>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low<br>
>>> >>>probability to=<br>
>>> >>> >> work.<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a<br>
>>> great<br><br>
>>> >>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I<br>
>>> >>>personally do not =<br>
>>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they<br>
>>> >>>do obscur=<br>
>>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most<br>
>>> >>>expensive=<br>
>>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a<br>
>>> big<br><br>
>>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
>>> >>>dangerous*.=<br>
>>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure<br>
>>> >>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=<br>
>>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote<br>
>>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=<br>
>>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=<br>
>>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>In missive<br>
>>> >>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gma=<br>
>>> >>> >>il.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>g12602.html"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>> >exist since AR=<br>
>>> >>> >>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>> >>>networks, veh=<br>
>>> >>> >>icular<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"<a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for<br>
>>> anything<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of<br>
>>> >>>all communi=<br>
>>> >>> >>cations, not the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>> >>>&lt;<a href=3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
>>> wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as<br>
>>> the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>> >>>you&quot; pos=<br>
>>> >>> >>er syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>> >>>solution,<=<br>
>>> >>> >>br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we<br>
>>> >>>really ask thi=<br>
>>> >>> >>s question?<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>> >>>themselves wha=<br>
>>> >>> >>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we<br>
>>> >>>want for th=<br>
>>> >>> >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the<br>
>>> >>>E2E argume=<br>
>>> >>> >>nt(s))<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the<br>
>>> >>>problem it =<br>
>>> >>> >>solves<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,<br>
>>> >>>whichever vers=<br>
>>> >>> >>ion you choose<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@d">50589DCC.2030808@d</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>> >>>Crowcroft wrot=<br>
>>> >>> >>e:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
>>> >>>encourage you to=<br>
>>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1<br>
>>> >>>pointer was give=<br>
>>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of<br>
>>> >>>whether this thr=<br>
>>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was<br>
>>> >>>not relevant=<br>
>>> >>> >>...<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg<br>
>>> InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>> >>> >>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.<br>
>>> >>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=<br>
>>> >>> >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>>&lt;span dir=3D3=<br>
>>> >>> >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> >>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=<br>
>>> >>> >>.crowcroft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>> >>>class=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>> >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> >>>solid;padding-=<br>
>>> >>> >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>> >>>exist sinc=<br>
>>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>> >>>networks, vehic=<br>
>>> >>> >>ular networ=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quo=<br>
>>> >>> >>t; target=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>> >>>we can imag=<br>
>>> >>> >>ine and=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not<br>
>>> >>>the inters=<br>
>>> >>> >>ection of o=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep<br>
>>> >>>2012 17:4=<br>
>>> >>> >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.">pars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> >>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=<br>
>>> >>> >>utaf@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br<br>
>>> >>>type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=<br>
>>> >>> >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
>>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=<br>
>>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br>
>>> >>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span<br>
>>> >>>dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>@<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=<br>
>>> >>> >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>> >>>style=3D3D&quot;margin:=<br>
>>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>> >>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=<br>
>>> >>> >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>> solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the<br>
>>> >>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=<br>
>>> >>> >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for<br>
>>> >>>the Intern=<br>
>>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for<br>
>>> >>>example, they di=<br>
>>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do<br>
>>> >>>we want f=<br>
>>> >>> >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>> >>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=<br>
>>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=<br>
>>> >>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E<br>
>>> >>>argument(s))&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it<br>
>>> >>>solves&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br>
>>> >>>version you c=<br>
>>> >>> >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto=<br>
>>> >>> >>:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a><br>
>>> </a>&quot;<br>
>>> >>>tar=<br>
>>> >>> >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>>typed:&lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&=<br>
>>> >>> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>> >>&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=<br>
>>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>om"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> >>>target=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>> >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@m</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a>"><br>
>>> <a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=<br>
>>> >>> >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf<br>
>>> typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0<br>
>>> >>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=<br>
>>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0<br>
>>> >>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=<br>
>>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
>>> >>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>> >>> >>br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br>
>>> >>>this thread=<br>
>>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>> >>>relevant...=<br>
>>> >>> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg<br>
>>> >>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"http:=<br>
>>> >>> >>//<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> >>>target=3D3D&quot;_b=<br>
>>> >>> >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>> >>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>> >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span<br>
>>> >>>class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>> >>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=<br>
>>> >>> >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=<br>
>>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=<br>
>>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/=<br>
>>> >>> >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br<br>
>>> >>>clear=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>>> >>> >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>> >>>href=3D"http://=<br>
>>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=<br>
>>> >>> >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--<br>
>>> <br><a href=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> cheers<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> jon<br>
>>> >><br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee<br>
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
>><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Cro=<br>
>>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=<br>
>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>yes - the ballonist assumes you&#39;d have electricity<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>i dont.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br><br>
>>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are<br><br>
>>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and<br><br>
>>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see<br><br>
>>for example google&#39;s mapping of haiti earthquake damage),<br><br>
>>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with<br><br>
>>the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....<br></blockquote><di=<br>
>>v><br><br>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you ca=<br>
>>nnot<br>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. <br><br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br><br>
>>something mon golfier frere hasn&#39;t<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>where and what resources are still working would be good<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)<br=<br>
>>><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]&gt;, John Day typed:<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems lik=<br>
>>e a big<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have power.<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I can see you guys haven&#39;t been in many disasters.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers)=<br>
>> in<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skills=<br>
>>et,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during dis=<br>
>>asters<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net =<br>
>>for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could =<br>
>>also<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awaren=<br>
>>ess<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams=<br>
>> find<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;where self help groups existed with resources and where to p=<br>
>>rovide<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for ho=<br>
>>w to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;optimse resoruce allocation.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the balloons are visible here<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://x" target="_blank">http://x</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://kcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">kcd.com/1110/</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;if you clock and drag far enough along...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;In missive &lt;CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc=<br>
>>z+wqnkwA@mail.gmail.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a typical disaster scenario, many of whu=<br>
>>ch have been studied in<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; great detail, =A0people have to make do wit=<br>
>>h resources they have to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; hand<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; they may be spread over a large area (e.g a=<br>
>>ll of indonesia, japan,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; california) and not be prepared with giant =<br>
>>ballons as you desribed<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39; tas=<br>
>>k of course.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; manets can be usefully built out of these.<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;MANET may not work for isolated users in a disas=<br>
>>ter scenario<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;because they are too far away from the rest of t=<br>
>>he network.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low =<br>
>>probability to work.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a military scenario i menion, your giant=<br>
>> ballon idea is a great<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target for the other side<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;I personally do not argue for the army.. This is=<br>
>> not really research,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;because they do obscure things that we do not ev=<br>
>>en know. They can just<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;use the most expensive satellite phones. They do=<br>
>> not care.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant=<br>
>> ballon would be a big<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; drag, especially when you go through tunnel=<br>
>>s and under bridges.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*=<br>
>>. Just use the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;infrastructure<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;network.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail=<br>
>>.gmail.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charse=<br>
>>t=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. =<br>
>>See:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/m=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/m=</a><br>
>>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.i" target="_blank">http://www.i</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=<br>
>>, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcr">jon.crowcr</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:oft@cl.cam.ac.uk">oft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sur=<br>
>>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; radio<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks,=<br>
>> disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in=<br>
>> use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for =<br>
>>just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by =<br>
>>definition, for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; anything<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize.=<br>
>>..it is the union of all communications,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion =<br>
>>with one technology.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot=<br>
>>;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>">pars.mutaf@gm=<br>
>><a href="http://ail.com" target="_blank">ail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at=<br>
>> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.C">Jon.C</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:rowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">rowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we use=<br>
>>d to talk about as the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is=<br>
>> too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever=<br>
>> you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the p=<br>
>>roblem) changes the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the ass=<br>
>>umptions)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change =<br>
>>the problem:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the=<br>
>> Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example,=<br>
>> they did not ask themselves what it is used<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; for.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thr=<br>
>>ead &quot;What do we want for the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;Internet&quot; =A0but I<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; am<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do=<br>
>> this.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice thi=<br>
>>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is reall=<br>
>>y hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still d=<br>
>>oesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe no=<br>
>>t IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a h=<br>
>>ref=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a><=<br>
>>/a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/=<br>
>>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In =<br>
>>missive &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:cP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">cP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg=<br>
>><a href="mailto:T%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">T+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s M=<br>
>>utaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0=<br>
>> &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given=<br>
>>)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0=<br>
>> &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it =<br>
>>is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the b=<br>
>>roader sense of whether this thread has been,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;or has any<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; hope<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, c=<br>
>>onstructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave=<br>
>> Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Bran=<br>
>>denburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a h=<br>
>>ref=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-ba" target="_blank">http://www.content-ba</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://sed-science.org" target="_blank">sed-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=<br>
>>=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quote=<br>
>>d-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. =<br>
>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/m=<br>
>>sg12602.html&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D=</a><br>
>>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h=<br>
>>tml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=<br>
>>, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=<br>
>>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"m=<br>
>><a href="mailto:ailto%3Ajon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">ailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon.crowcr=<br>
>>oft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" ta=<br>
>>rget=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; style=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=<br>
>>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example,=<br>
>> sure. Many use cases exist since<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;ARPA Packet<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; rad=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, d=<br>
>>isaster recovery networks, vehicular<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networ=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad dep=<br>
>>loyed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#3=<br>
>>9;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D=<br>
>>"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by defi=<br>
>>nition, for anything we can<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; imagine and=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of al=<br>
>>l communications, not the intersection<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; of o=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&l=<br>
>>t;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_qu=<br>
>>ote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &amp;quot;Pars<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;Mutaf&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a =<br>
>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.mutaf=<br>
>>@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt=<br>
>>;br type=3D3D&quot;attribution&quot;&gt;&lt;blockquote<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0=<br>
>> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div clas=<br>
>>s=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;7:17 PM, Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Cro=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;lt=<br>
>>r&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.u">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.u</a>=<br>
>>k"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt=<br>
>>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></=<br>
>>a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quo=<br>
>>te&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;.8ex;border-left:1px<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; #cc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&g=<br>
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk abo=<br>
>>ut as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard=<br>
>> even for you&amp;quot; poser syndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a =<br>
>>workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) chang=<br>
>>es the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; chang=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; ask t=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot e=<br>
>>xplain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new th=<br>
>>read &amp;quot;What do we want for the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I sho=<br>
>>uld do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote=<br>
>> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=<br>
>>204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP =<br>
>>(and the E2E argument(s))&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to cha=<br>
>>nge the problem it solves&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;=<br>
>>t solve, whichever version you choose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;b=<br>
>>r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.20=<br>
>><a href="mailto:30808@dcrocker.net">30808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto=<br>
>>:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;=<br>
>>&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/201=<br>
>>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In=<br>
>> missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2X">58iDwO%252BV2X</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmai=<br>
>><a href="http://l.com" target="_blank">l.com</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-=<br>
>>s=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWf">XDZD-xxaeC2iWf</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:M58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t=<br>
>><a href="mailto:FcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">FcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s =<br>
>>Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; prior=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)=<br>
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it=<br>
>> is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broa=<br>
>>der sense of whether this thread has<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;been, or has<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; any=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, cons=<br>
>>tructive, it was not relevant...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave =<br>
>>Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brand=<br>
>>enburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a=<br>
>> href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.n" target="_blank">http://bbiw.n</a>=<br>
>>et</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" t=<br>
>>arget=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0che=<br>
>>ers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&=<br>
>>quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b=<br>
>>lockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;=<br>
>>span<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&q=<br>
>>uot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" ta=<br>
>>rget=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.co" target="_blank">http://www.co</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ntent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ntent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b=<br>
>>lockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a h=<br>
>>ref=3D3D&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-s" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3=<br>
>>D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On =<br>
>>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;=<br>
>>a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.C=<br>
>><a href="mailto:rowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">rowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon">Jon</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="mailto:Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&l=<br>
>>t;/span&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&qu=<br>
>>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;#ccc soli=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch ha=<br>
>>ve been studied in&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with r=<br>
>>esources they have to&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;hand&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of=<br>
>> indonesia, japan,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;california) and not be prepared with giant ballo=<br>
>>ns as you desribed&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;Preparing the balloons is not the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;users&amp;#39; task=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; of course. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Organizations li=<br>
>>ke red cross will prepare<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;them.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>>gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=<br>
>>-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;what many DO have is phones and laptops.&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;manets can be usefully built out of these.&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;&lt;br&gt;MANET may not work for isolated<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;users in a di=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;saster scenario &lt;br&gt;because they are too f=<br>
>>ar away from the rest<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;of the netw=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ork. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So MANET is not only us=<br>
>>eless, it has a very low<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;probability to=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; work.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=<br>
>>=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=<br>
>>ding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in a military scenario i menion, your giant ball=<br>
>>on idea is a great&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;target for the other side&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquo=<br>
>>te&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;personally do not =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;argue for the army.. This is not really research=<br>
>>,&lt;br&gt;because they<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;do obscur=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e things that we do not even know. They can just=<br>
>> &lt;br&gt;use the most<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;expensive=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; satellite phones. They do not care. &lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=<br>
>>=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=<br>
>>ding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ball=<br>
>>on would be a big&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;drag, especially when you go through tunnels and=<br>
>> under bridges.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;dangerous*.=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; Just use the infrastructure<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;network.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;b=<br>
>>lockquote class=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;mar=<br>
>>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;your move, sunshine.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div=<br>
>>&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; st=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;yle=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-le=<br>
>>ft:1px solid<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ing-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;In missive<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@=<br>
>>mail.gma=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;il.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;com&amp;gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=<br>
>>b8d&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/plain; c=<br>
>>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;h5&quot;&gt;=<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough =<br>
>>Jon. See:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w=</a><br>
>>eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/=</a><br>
>>web/manet/current/ms=3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;g12602.html&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf." target="_blank">http://www.ietf.</a>=<br>
>>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail=</a><br>
>>-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;urrent/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=<br>
>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;jon.crowcroft@=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank=<br>
>>"><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take the MANET exa=<br>
>>mple, sure. Many use cases<br><br>
>>&gt;exist since AR=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;PA Packet radio&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; days. Battlefield =<br>
>>networks, disaster recovery<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;networks, veh=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;icular&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; networks...some ac=<br>
>>tually in use ad deployed.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; The internet isn&a=<br>
>>mp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>" target=3D"_blank">ht=<br>
>>tp://thing</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.it&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by defi=<br>
>>nition, for anything&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; we can imagine and=<br>
>> realize...it is the union of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;all communi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;cations, not the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; intersection of on=<br>
>>e notion with one technology.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:=<br>
>>48, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.">pars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=<br>
>>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.c">pars.mutaf@gmail.c</a>=<br>
>>om"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On Tue, Se=<br>
>>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &amp;lt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">roft@cl.cam=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; th=<br>
>>is is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &a=<br>
>>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;you&amp;quot; pos=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;er syndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; ba=<br>
>>sically, whenever you offer a workable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;solution,&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; th=<br>
>>e poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; pr=<br>
>>oblem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; No I didn&=<br>
>>amp;#39;t change the problem:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; What do we=<br>
>> want for the Internet? Did we<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;really ask thi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;s question?&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take MANET=<br>
>> for example, they did not ask<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;themselves wha=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;t it is used for.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; They canno=<br>
>>t explain.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I would st=<br>
>>art a new thread &amp;quot;What do we<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;want for th=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e Internet&amp;quot; =3DA0but I am&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; not sure i=<br>
>>f I should do this.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Cheers,&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Pars&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; on=<br>
>>e of the nice things about IP (and the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;E2E argume=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;nt(s))&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is=<br>
>> that it is really hard to change the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;problem it =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;solves&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; in=<br>
>> a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;whichever vers=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ion you choose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; (w=<br>
>>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In=<br>
>> missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@d">50589DCC.2030808@d</a>">=<br>
>>50589DCC.2030808@d</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">http://crocker.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"=<br>
>>><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">=<br>
>><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft wrot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &l=<br>
>>t;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae</a>=<br>
>>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-sXD=<br>
>>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.c</a>=<br>
>>om"><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;encourage you to=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; read the relevant prior work (many&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; po=<br>
>>inters were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;pointer was give=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;whether this thr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ead has been, or has any hope&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; of=<br>
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;not relevant=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbi" target="_blank">http://bbi</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://w.net" target="_blank">w.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; --&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.o" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.o</a>=<br>
>>rg" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=<br>
>>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://content-based-science.org" target="_blank">content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scie" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scie</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://nce.org" target="_blank">nce.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hre=<br>
>>f=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.con" target="_blank">http://www.con</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blan=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;k&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/=<br>
>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--2=<br>
>>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/html; ch=<br>
>>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: =<br>
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>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough =<br>
>>Jon.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;See:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><=<br>
>>/a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a>" target=3D"_=<br>
>>blank"><a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr=<br>
>>ent/msg12602.html&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf." target="_blank">http://www.ietf.</a>=<br>
>>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;il-arch=3D3D&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12=<br>
>>602.html&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div=<br>
>> class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=<br>
>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;D&amp;quot;ltr&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&amp=<br>
>>;lt;a hr=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ef=3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&=<br>
>>lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;jon=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.crowcroft@cl=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;.&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt; wro=<br>
>>te:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;blockquote<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;gmail_quote&amp;quot; style=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0 0=<br>
>> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;solid;padding-=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;Take the M=<br>
>>ANET example, sure. Many use cases<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;exist sinc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;io days. Battlefield networ=<br>
>>ks, disaster recovery<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;networks, vehic=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ular networ=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ks...some actually in use a=<br>
>>d deployed.&amp;lt;/p&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;The intern=<br>
>>et isn&amp;amp;#39;t for just one &amp;lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http:/=<br>
>>/<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quo=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;t; target=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp=<br>
>>;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_b=<br>
>>lank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>=<br>
>>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt; is, by definit=<br>
>>ion, for anything<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;we can imag=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ine and=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; realize...it is the union =<br>
>>of all communications, not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the inters=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ection of o=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ne notion with one technolo=<br>
>>gy.&amp;lt;/p&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div class=3D3D3D&am=<br>
>>p;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt;On 18 Sep<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;2012 17:4=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;8, &amp;amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;amp;quot; &amp;a=<br>
>>mp;lt=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;=<br>
>>quot;mailto:&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail">pars.mutaf@gmail</a>.">p=<br>
>>ars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;com&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.">pars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=<br>
>>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;pars.m=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;utaf@gmail=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;.com&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>amp;gt; wrote:&amp;lt;br<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;type=3D3D3D&amp;quot;attribution&amp;q=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;uot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&amp;=<br>
>>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;e&amp;quot; style=3D3D3D&am=<br>
>>p;quot;margin:0 0 0<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;olid;padding-left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b=<br>
>>r&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;wcroft &amp;lt;span<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;dir=3D3D3D&amp;quot;ltr&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt=<br>
>>;a href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank=<br>
>>"><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; =3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_bla=<br>
>>nk&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft</a>">Jon.C=<br>
>>rowcroft</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;@<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">=<br>
>><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>lt;/span&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;; wrote:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;bloc=3D3D&lt;b=<br>
>>r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&amp;quo=<br>
>>t;gmail_quote&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&am=<br>
>>p;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;this is what we used to tal=<br>
>>k about as the&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;quot;my problem is=<br>
>> too hard even for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;you&amp;amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ndrome&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;basically, whenever you off=<br>
>>er a workable solution,&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;the poser (of the problem) =<br>
>>changes the&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;problem (or the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;assumptions)&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&am=<br>
>>p;lt;div=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;No I didn&amp;amp;#39;=<br>
>>t chang=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;e the problem:&amp;lt;br&am=<br>
>>p;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;What do we want for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;the Intern=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;et? Did we really ask t=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;his question?&amp;lt;br&amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Take MANET for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;example, they di=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d not ask themselves wh=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;at it is used for. They can=<br>
>>not explain. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;I would s=<br>
>>tart a new thread &amp;amp;quot;What do<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;we want f=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;or the Internet&amp;amp;quot;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure i=<br>
>>f I should do this.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;Cheers, &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Pars&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=<br>
>>;=3D3DA0&amp;lt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;lt;blockquote<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quo=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;t; style=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=<br>
>>=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;one of the nice things abou=<br>
>>t IP (and the E2E<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;argument(s))&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;is that it is really hard t=<br>
>>o change the problem it<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;solves&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in a way it still doesn&amp=<br>
>>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;version you c=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;hoose&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)=<br>
>>&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp=<br>
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>=<br>
>>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.203">50589DCC.203</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:0808@dcrocker.net">0808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;tar=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;=<br>
>>a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcr">50589DCC.2030808@dcr</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ocker.net" target="_blank">ocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;&gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"=<br>
>>><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;,=<br>
>> Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;typed:&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=<br>
>>div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft wrote:&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae</a>=<br>
>>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;xxaeC2iWfM&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%2525252BV2XV1tF">58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF</a>=<br>
>>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmai=<br>
>>l.c</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;om&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:cP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">cP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.co">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.co</a>=<br>
>>m</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw</a>=<br>
>>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=<br>
>>A@m</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">http://ail.gmail.com</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2X">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@=<br>
>><a href="http://mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;, Par&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;=<br>
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; I e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; work (many pointers were g=<br>
>>iven)&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is not relevant.&amp;lt;br=<br>
>>&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; it is exactly<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;relevant.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;this thread=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; has been, or has any=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; hope of&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;relevant...=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;d/&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt;--&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;InternetWorking&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=<br>
>>;gt; =3D3DA0&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;http:=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;//<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw." target="_blank">http://bbiw.</a>=<br>
>>net" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_b=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;lank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt=<br>
>>;/div&amp;gt;=3D3DA0cheers&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;span&amp;gt;&amp;lt=<br>
>>;font<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;color=3D3D3D&amp;quot;#888888&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=<br>
>>p;gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&amp;lt;b=<br>
>>r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;l=<br>
>>t;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=<br>
>>p;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;gt;&amp;lt;br clear=3D3D3D&amp;quot;all&amp;quot=<br>
>>;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;span<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;HOEnZ=3D3D&lt;br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;b&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=<br>
>>font<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;color=3D3D3D&amp;quot;#888888&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=<br>
>>p;gt;-=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;- &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;qu=<br>
>>ot;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>&quot; tar=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://=<br>
>>www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>&lt;/a=<br>
>>&gt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hre=<br>
>>f=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.or" target="_blank">http://cience.or</a>=<br>
>>g" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;q=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;uot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp=<br>
>>;gt;&lt;a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://nt-based-science.org" target="_blank">nt-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.or" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or</a>=<br>
>>g</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=3D3D&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;l=<br>
>>t;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;=<br>
>>&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;clear=3D3D3D&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;all&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;-- &amp;l=<br>
>>t;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a<br><br>
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>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;www.c&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a =<br>
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>>br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hre=<br>
>>f=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ontent-based" target="_blank">http://ontent-based</a>=<br>
>>-<a href="http://science.org" target="_blank">science.org</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;on=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://tent-based-science.org</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&am=<br>
>>p;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>cienc" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a>=<br>
>>nt-b" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ased-scienc&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hre=<br>
>>f=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" ta=<br>
>>rget=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;l=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;t;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=<br>
>>b8d--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZb&quot;&gt;&lt;fon=<br>
>>t color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt=<br>
>>;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;&lt;a href=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&quot=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ent-based-science.org</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>