<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I have been following this discussion with great interest and I would like to invite you all to submit to this relevant workshop I am co-organising so that we can discuss all this in person. It will definitely be an interesting, to say the least, session.</p>
<p><a href="http://san.ee.ic.ac.uk/pernem2013/">http://san.ee.ic.ac.uk/pernem2013/</a></p>
<p>Kind regards,<br>
Georgia </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sep 20, 2012 12:52 PM, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
OK see, where there was a problem: <br><br><a href="http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/" target="_blank">http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/</a><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on MANET seriously?<br><br>London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down: <br><br><a href="http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html" target="_blank">http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html</a><br>
<br><br><br>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
you give examples where it does work - so what?<br>
<br>
counter examples:<br>
both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets<br>
in indonesia and japan.<br>
in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube,<br>
for 7 hours no cell net worked at all.<br>
<br>
you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a<br>
disaster backup net. I can give you many<br>
<br>
you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual.<br>
<br>
In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co=<a href="mailto:0PA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">0PA@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
s Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0<br>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<div><div> >><br>
>>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.<br>
>><br>
>>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of disaster.<br>
>>See for example:<br>
>><br>
>><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br>
>><a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>><a href="http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages" target="_blank">http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br>
>><br>
>>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust<br>
>>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...<br>
>><br>
>>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.<br>
>><br>
>>ps: DTN, I did not question yet.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one songle<br>
>>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect<br>
>>> views about disasters and about our networks.<br>
>>><br>
>>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br>
>>> 1. how many do you need<br>
>>> 2. what is their cost<br>
>>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br>
>>> 4. how long do their power sources last<br>
>>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance<br>
>>> 6. how often are they deployed?<br>
>>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br>
>>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br>
>>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> by the way, you said MANET again -<br>
>>> I said we modified this 12 years back or<br>
>>> more to do DTN -<br>
>>> please stop repeateing incorrect<br>
>>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br>
>>><br>
>>> you are confused.<br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> One is to build standby cell power<br>
>>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br>
>>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
>>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Cool.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is<br>
>>> parallel in<br>
>>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get<br>
>>> either of<br>
>>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> However, its beside the point:<br>
>>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want<br>
>>> to<br>
>>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br>
>>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br>
>>> >>> who have safe water, dry<br>
>>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>No I don't do this mistake.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> What people building DTNs<br>
>>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>>> >>> self organising set of people to<br>
>>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
>>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
>>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists<br>
>>> -<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
>>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
>>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously<br>
>>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
>>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
>>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
>>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=<br>
>>> >>> <a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will<br>
>>> only<br>
>>> >>> be<br>
>>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I<br>
>>> would<br>
>>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for<br>
>>> trying to<br>
>>> >>> get<br>
>>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy<br>
>>> for<br>
>>> >>> others<br>
>>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they<br>
>>> should do.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg,<br>
>>> >>> request<br>
>>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I<br>
>>> am not<br>
>>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some<br>
>>> people<br>
>>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my<br>
>>> pocket.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>Therefore:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will<br>
>>> broadcast<br>
>>> >>> an<br>
>>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>===<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough,<br>
>>> we may<br>
>>> >>> not<br>
>>> >>> >>even need a balloon:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM,<br>
>>> Jon Cr=<br>
>>> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"=<br>
>>> >> target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> wrote:<br><blo=<br>
>>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
>>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c=<br>
>>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>One is to build standby cell power<br><br>
>>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br>
>>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br>
>>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br>
>>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br>
>>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br><br>
>>> >>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br>
>>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br>
>>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in<br>
>>> fact...<br></blockq=<br>
>>> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>> rgb(204,204,204)=<br>
>>> >>;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is<br>
>>> parallel in=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out how to get<br>
>>> either =<br>
>>> >>of<br><br>
>>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>However, its beside the point:<br><br>
>>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want<br>
>>> to<br=<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br><br>
>>> >>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br><br>
>>> >>who have safe water, dry<br><br>
>>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc<br>
>>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =<br>
>>> >>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve for<br>
>>> the =<br>
>>> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing but a<br>
>>> res=<br>
>>> >>earch exercise to me. <br><br>
>>> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
>>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=<br>
>>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=<br>
>>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>What people building DTNs<br><br>
>>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br><br>
>>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br>
>>> >>self organising set of people to<br><br>
>>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br>
>>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br>
>>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br><br>
>>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br><br>
>>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br>
>>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail<br>
>>> lists -=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br><br>
>>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br><br>
>>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that&#39;s<br>
>>> obviously<br=<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left then, though).<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br><br>
>>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br><br>
>>> >>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; playing<br><br>
>>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br>
>>> >><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a></a><br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> yf18msEv0dg-=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>>> </a>&gt;,=<br>
>>> >> Par<br><br>
>>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise<br>
>>> MANET wi=<br>
>>> >>ll only be<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to<br>
>>> do. I=<br>
>>> >> would<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery<br>
>>> for tr=<br>
>>> >>ying to get<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional strangers.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no incentive to consume<br>
>>> energy=<br>
>>> >> for others<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. And this is what<br>
>>> they sh=<br>
>>> >>ould do.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your<br>
>>> broken le=<br>
>>> >>g, request<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional neighbors or other things,<br>
>>> but =<br>
>>> >>I am not<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can<br>
>>> provide?<br=<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone.<br>
>>> Some =<br>
>>> >>people<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I don&#39;t have this<br>
>>> in my=<br>
>>> >> pocket.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It<br>
>>> will br=<br>
>>> >>oadcast an<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for real help.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking problem. It is about<br>
>>> education.<=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust<br>
>>> enough,=<br>
>>> >> we may not<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=</a><br>
>>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"<br>
>>> target=3D=<br>
>>> >>"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=</a><br>
>>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a<br>
>>> href=3D"=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-" target="_blank">http://www.content-</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://based-science.org" target="_blank">based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0<br>
<div> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
</div> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by current p=<br>
>>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for example: <=<br>
>>br><br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a>"><a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144" target="_blank">bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a></a><br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon=</a><br>
>>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" target=3D"_blank">ht=<br>
>>tp://<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios=" target="_blank">www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios=</a><br>
>>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph=" target="_blank">http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph=</a><br>
>>ones-major-disasters-messages"><a href="http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine=" target="_blank">http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine=</a><br>
>>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you dot tru=<br>
>>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you agreed=<br>
>>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br><br>
>><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps: DTN, I =<br>
>>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Se=<br>
>>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=<br>
>><a href="mailto:to%3AJon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">to:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
<div> >></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><br>
</div> >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=<br>
>>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where&#39;s your funds to do your pla=<br>
>>n? you havn&#39;t answered one songle<br><br>
>>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>views about disasters and about our networks.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br><br>
>>1. how many do you need<br><br>
>>2. what is their cost<br><br>
>>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br><br>
>>4. how long do their power sources last<br><br>
>>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br><br>
>>6. how often are they deployed?<br><br>
>>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br><br>
>>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br><br>
>>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>by the way, you said MANET again -<br><br>
>>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br><br>
>>more to do DTN -<br><br>
>>please stop repeateing incorrect<br><br>
>>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>you are confused.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Oqi__T9T0GEcr" target="_blank">Oqi__T9T0GEcr</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;=<br>
>>, Par<br><br>
<div> >>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
</div> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; One is to build standby cell power<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years M=<br>
>>TBF (fail<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fac=<br>
>>t...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Cool.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one whic=<br>
>>h is parallel in<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out ho=<br>
>>w to get either of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some busines=<br>
>>s model<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; However, its beside the point:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster=<br>
>> zone want to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mne=<br>
>>monic)...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people _nea=<br>
>>rby_<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; who have safe water, dry<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;No I don&#39;t do this mistake.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood t=<br>
>>oo***.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;It is not needed as you admitted above.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; What people building DTNs<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; self organising set of people to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (because coming along right away requires you to have<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies present=<br>
>> on mail lists -<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora=<br>
>> to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that&#3=<br>
>>9;s obviously<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left then, t=<br>
>>hough).<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other=<br>
>>,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; playing<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a>" ta=<br>
>>rget=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Its been, er, virtual...<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>">y=<br>
>><a href="mailto:f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, ot=<br>
>>herwise MANET will only<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; be<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no id=<br>
>>ea what to do. I would<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of consuming m=<br>
>>y battery for trying to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; get<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional strangers.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no incentive t=<br>
>>o consume energy for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; others<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. And this=<br>
>> is what they should do.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your neighbors fo=<br>
>>r your broken leg,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; request<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional neighbors or ot=<br>
>>her things, but I am not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help they=<br>
>> can provide?<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I cannot rea=<br>
>>ch anyone. Some people<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I don&#39;t=<br>
>> have this in my pocket.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as poss=<br>
>>ible. It will broadcast<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; an<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for real help.<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking problem. It is a=<br>
>>bout education.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network is no=<br>
>>t robust enough, we may<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new=</a><br>
>>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p=</a><br>
>>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
</div> >>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br><br>
<div> >><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<=<br>
>>br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&qu=<br>
>>ot;&gt;On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;owcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&a=<br>
>>mp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac</a>=<br>
>>.uk"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcrof" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcrof</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:t@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">t@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&g=<br>
>>t; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blo=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ckquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin=<br>
>>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;cc solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;Ah - I see the source of confusion.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You want to build a standby infrastructure&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;There are lots of ways to do that -&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;One is to build standby cell power&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;the way the generators at fukushima were)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;or have huge racks of batteries the way old&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (=<br>
>>fail&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;defined as &amp;gt;50% of lines down) -&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockq=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;uote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cool. &lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px=<br>
>> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is =<br>
>>parallel in=3D<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;technology - as you&amp;#39;ve proposed....and go figure out how=<br>
>> to get either =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business mod=<br>
>>el&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;However, its beside the point:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone=<br>
>> want to&lt;br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic=<br>
>>)...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;they don&amp;#39;t. what they want is to find other people _near=<br>
>>by_&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;who have safe water, dry&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blo=<br>
>>ckquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;No =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I don&amp;#39;t do this mistake. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;***The base=<br>
>> station can serve for the =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;calling the neighborhood too***. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;MANET looks=<br>
>> like nothing but a res=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;earch exercise to me. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;It is not needed as you admitted above. &lt;br&gt;&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0=<br>
>>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;What people building DTNs&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;want to do is to provide _something_ for a&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;self organising set of people to&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;self organise opportunistic communication,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;UNTIL someone (else) comes along&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;(because coming along right away requires you to have&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;go figure out how get that paid for).&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Anyhow I&amp;#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies present =<br>
>>on mail lists -=3D<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error&lt;b=<br>
>>r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that&amp;#39=<br>
>>;s obviously&lt;br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;not the point any more. (lord knows what&amp;#39;s left then, th=<br>
>>ough).&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit&lt;b=<br>
>>r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;while listening to &amp;#39;Blood&amp;#39; playing&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=</a><br>
>>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6=</a><br>
>>ZJjt9lg</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a>" targe=<br>
>>t=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=<br>
<div> >>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Its been, er, virtual...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div><div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-" target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-</a>">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a>">4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.g=<br>
>><a href="http://mail.com" target="_blank">mail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail." target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.</a>=<br>
>>com"><a href="mailto:yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/plain;=<br>
>> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZb&quot;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D=<br>
>>&quot;h5&quot;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:&lt;br&=<br>
<div> >>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructur=<br>
>>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ll only be&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have =<br>
>>no idea what to do. I=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; would&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;rather wait for real help instead of consum=<br>
>>ing my battery for tr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ying to get&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;help from non-professional strangers.&lt;br=<br>
<div> >>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;This means that users really have no incent=<br>
>>ive to consume energy=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; for others&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;because they are waiting for real help. And=<br>
>> this is what they sh=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ould do.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You can of course try to reach your neighbo=<br>
>>rs for your broken le=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;g, request&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;water from your non-professional neighbors =<br>
>>or other things, but =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I am not&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help=<br>
>> they can provide?&lt;br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;2. If I am too far from the network I canno=<br>
>>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;people&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I don&=<br>
>>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; pocket.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Therefore:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as=<br>
>> possible. It will br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;oadcast an&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;address which everyone can call for real he=<br>
>>lp.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;This is really not a networking problem. It=<br>
>> is about education.&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network =<br>
>>is not robust enough,=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; we may not&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;even need a balloon:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target="_blank">trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target="_blank">trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/=<br>
>>&quot; target=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b=" target="_blank">http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b=</a><br>
>>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.trust." target="_blank">http://www.trust.</a>=<br>
>>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/&lt;/a&gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D=<br>
>>&quot;=3D<br><br>
<div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
</div> >>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&q=<br>
>>uot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-" target="_blank">http://www.content-</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.conten" target="_blank">http://www.conten</a>=<br>
>>t-</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://based-science.org" target="_blank">http://based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">based-sci=<br>
>><a href="http://ence.org" target="_blank">ence.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br><br>
<div> >><br><br>
>>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
</div> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=<br>
<div> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
</div> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>
</blockquote></div>