<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
hand<br>
<br>
they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
<br>
manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
your move, sunshine.<br>
<br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br>
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<div><div class="h5"> >><br>
>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>><br>
>><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet radio<br>
>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, not the<br>
>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for.<br>
>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am<br>
>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>>> Pars<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In missive <<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>>>> >>> In missive <<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>>>> >>><br>
>>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>>>> >>><br>
>>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope<br>
>>>>> of<br>
>>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >>d/<br>
>>>>> >><br>
>>>>> >>--<br>
>>>>> >> Dave Crocker<br>
>>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>>>> >> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> cheers<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> jon<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> --<br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=</a><br>
>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=<br>
>>quote"><br>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft@cl=<br>
>>.<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=<br>
>>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet rad=<br>
>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular networ=<br>
>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can imagine and=<br>
>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection of o=<br>
>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=<br>
>>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>" target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf@gmail=<br>
>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=<br>
>>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=<br>
>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=<br>
>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask t=<br>
>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wh=<br>
>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the Internet&quot;=<br>
>>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=A0<=<br>
>>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=<br>
>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br><br>
>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>" target=3D"_=<br>
>>blank"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>><div><div><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>" target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=<br>
>><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant prior=<br>
>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=<br>
>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any=<br>
>> hope of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><b=<br>
>>r><br>
>><br><br>
>></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span class=3D"HOEnZ=<br>
>>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><=<br>
>>br><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>