Sorry I don't believe this. I continue to question everything. <br><br>I don't believe that there is a 72 hours delay. We have helicopters, etc. If there is an <br>unacceptable delay, the right approach is to invest on decreasing this delay because <br>
communication is not the only problem in a disasters scenario. People need food, water, <br>etc.<br><br>Do some meditation and ask yourself the *real reason of these publications*. It took<br>me 5 years to see the naked truth. <br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters,<br>
you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services<br>
arrive is approximately 72 hours.<br>
<br>
A ver good text if you want a summary of many<br>
real world disasters is this book<br>
<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075</a><br>
<br>
The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN)<br>
is better than nothing.<br>
<br>
vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks<br>
are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data<br>
_along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to<br>
deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now.<br>
<br>
of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything,<br>
except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and<br>
told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led<br>
to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone<br>
to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know<br>
anything<br>
<br>
In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA@mail.gmail.<br>
<div><div class="h5">com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>><br>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> hand<br>
>>><br>
>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.<br>
>><br>
>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>><br>
>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br>
>>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.<br>
>><br>
>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>> target for the other side<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>
>>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just<br>
>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<br>
>>infrastructure<br>
>>network.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >><<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>> radio<br>
>>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> The internet isn't for just one <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for<br>
>>> anything<br>
>>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,<br>
>>> not the<br>
>>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>> >>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used<br>
>>> for.<br>
>>> >>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I<br>
>>> am<br>
>>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> In missive <<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>>>> >>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>>>> <a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>> Par<br>
>>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>> >>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
>>> relevant.<br>
>>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any<br>
>>> hope<br>
>>> >>>>> of<br>
>>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>>>> >>d/<br>
>>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>>>> >>--<br>
>>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>>>> >> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> cheers<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>> jon<br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>> --<br>
>>> >>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >>>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=</a><br>
>>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_=<br>
>>> >>quote"><br>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
>>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=<br>
>>> >>ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft@cl=<br>
>>> >>.<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> style=<br>
>>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>> rad=<br>
>>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> networ=<br>
>>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can<br>
>>> imagine and=<br>
>>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection<br>
>>> of o=<br>
>>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>> &lt=<br>
>>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf@gmail=<br>
>>> >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>>> Cro=<br>
>>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>> >>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> #cc=<br>
>>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
>>> chang=<br>
>>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
>>> ask t=<br>
>>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>> themselves wh=<br>
>>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>> Internet&quot;=<br>
>>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
>>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=<br>
>>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>> >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_=<br>
>>> >>blank"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>> >><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
>>> Par<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
>>> prior=<br>
>>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>> Crowcroft), it=<br>
>>> >> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has<br>
>>> any=<br>
>>> >> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> </a><b=<br>
>>> >>r><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span<br>
>>> class=3D"HOEnZ=<br>
>>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> </a><br><=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
<div class="im"> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
</div> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =<br>
>><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=<br>
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=<br>
>>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br><br>
>>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br><br>
>>hand<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br><br>
>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br><br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39; task=<br>
>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br><br>=<br>
>>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=<br>
<div class="im"> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
</div> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=<br>
>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the netw=<br>
>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to=<br>
>> work.<br><br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br><br>
>>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do not =<br>
>>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do obscur=<br>
>>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most expensive=<br>
>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br><br>
>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br><br>
>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br><br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=<br>
>> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=<br>
>>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=<br>
>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>><br>
>>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=<br>
>>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=<br>
>>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>In missive &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gma=<br>
>>il.<br><br>
>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=</a><br>
>>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=</a><br>
>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=<br>
>><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since AR=<br>
>>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, veh=<br>
>>icular<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>=<br>
>>.it" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communi=<br>
>>cations, not the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=<br>
>>"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=<br>
>><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; pos=<br>
>>er syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask thi=<br>
>>s question?<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wha=<br>
>>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for th=<br>
>>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argume=<br>
>>nt(s))<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the problem it =<br>
>>solves<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=<br>
>>ion you choose<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@d">50589DCC.2030808@d</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=<br>
>>e:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=<br>
<div class="im"> >><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=<br>
>> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=<br>
>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=<br>
>>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=<br>
>>...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=<br>
>>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=<br>
<div class="im"> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a href=3D=<br>
>>"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=</a><br>
>>il-arch=3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3=<br>
>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=<br>
>>.crowcroft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=<br>
>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist sinc=<br>
>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehic=<br>
>>ular networ=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D=<br>
>>&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quo=<br>
>>t; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D=<br>
>>"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything we can imag=<br>
>>ine and=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not the inters=<br>
>>ection of o=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=<br>
>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.">pars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=<br>
>>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=<br>
>>utaf@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=<br>
>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=<br>
>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=<br>
>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft</a>=<br>
>>@<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=<br>
>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:=<br>
>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for you&amp;quot; poser sy=<br>
>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=<br>
>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=<br>
>>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=<br>
>>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do we want f=<br>
>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=<br>
>>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
<div class="im"> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
</div> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever version you c=<br>
>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=<br>
>>:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot; tar=<br>
>>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">=<br>
>><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=<br>
>>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=<br>
>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c</a>=<br>
>>om"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@m</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=<br>
>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=<br>
>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=<br>
>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread=<br>
>> has been, or has any=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...=<br>
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http:=<br>
>>//<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_b=<br>
>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=<br>
>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=<br>
>>get=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=<br>
>>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/=<br>
>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://=<br>
>>www.c" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">on=<br>
>><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=<br>
>>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>