<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity<br>
<br>
i dont.<br>
<br>
lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br>
running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are<br>
and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...<br>
<br>
coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and<br>
landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see<br>
for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),<br>
it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with<br>
the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....<br></blockquote><div><br><br>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot<br>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. <br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
something mon golfier frere hasn't<br>
<br>
being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is<br>
where and what resources are still working would be good<br>
<br>
i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters<br>
(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)<br>
<br>
<br>
In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:<br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big<br>
>>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.<br>
>><br>
>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.<br>
>><br>
>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in<br>
>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br>
>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
>>><br>
>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br>
>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br>
>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
>>><br>
>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br>
>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br>
>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br>
>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br>
>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br>
>>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>the balloons are visible here<br>
>>><a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a><br>
>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA@mail.gmail.<br>
>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> >>> hand<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br>
>>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>> >>> target for the other side<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>
>>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just<br>
>>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<br>
>>> >>infrastructure<br>
>>> >>network.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> In missive<br>
>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>> >><<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>> >>> radio<br>
>>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for<br>
>>> >>> anything<br>
>>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,<br>
>>> >>> not the<br>
>>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>> >>> >>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used<br>
>>> >>> for.<br>
>>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the<br>
>>>Internet" but I<br>
>>> >>> am<br>
>>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> >>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>><a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
>>> >>> relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
>>>or has any<br>
>>> >>> hope<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> of<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> jon<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> --<br>
>>> >>> >>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=<br>
>>> >>> >>quote"><br>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
>>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=<br>
>>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft@cl=<br>
>>> >>> >>.<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> >>> style=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
>>>ARPA Packet<br>
>>> >>> rad=<br>
>>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> >>> networ=<br>
>>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>> >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can<br>
>>> >>> imagine and=<br>
>>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection<br>
>>> >>> of o=<br>
>>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars<br>
>>>Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>> >>> &lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf@gmail=<br>
>>> >>> >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at<br>
>>>7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>>> >>> Cro=<br>
>>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
>>>.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> >>> #cc=<br>
>>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
>>> >>> chang=<br>
>>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
>>> >>> ask t=<br>
>>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>> >>> themselves wh=<br>
>>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>> >>> Internet&quot;=<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=<br>
>>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> >>> 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_=<br>
>>> >>> >>blank"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
>>> >>> Par<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
>>> >>> prior=<br>
>>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>> >>> Crowcroft), it=<br>
>>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has<br>
>>>been, or has<br>
>>> >>> any=<br>
>>> >>> >> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> </a><b=<br>
>>> >>> >>r><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=<br>
>>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> </a><br><=<br>
>>> >>> >>br><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> cheers<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> jon<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
>>>Crowcroft =<br>
>>> >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=<br>
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>>#ccc soli=<br>
>>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br><br>
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br><br>
>>> >>hand<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br><br>
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the<br>
>>>users&#39; task=<br>
>>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare<br>
>>>them.<br><br>=<br>
>>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt<br>
>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated<br>
>>>users in a di=<br>
>>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest<br>
>>>of the netw=<br>
>>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low<br>
>>>probability to=<br>
>>> >> work.<br><br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br><br>
>>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I<br>
>>>personally do not =<br>
>>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they<br>
>>>do obscur=<br>
>>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most<br>
>>>expensive=<br>
>>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =<br>
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br><br>
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
>>>dangerous*.=<br>
>>> >> Just use the infrastructure<br>
>>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=<br>
>>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=<br>
>>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote<br>
>>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=<br>
>>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=<br>
>>> >>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>In missive<br>
>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gma=<br>
>>> >>il.<br><br>
>>> >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=</a><br>
>>> >>g12602.html"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=</a><br>
>>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>exist since AR=<br>
>>> >>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>>networks, veh=<br>
>>> >>icular<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a<br>
>>>href=3D"<a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>=<br>
>>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of<br>
>>>all communi=<br>
>>> >>cations, not the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>>&lt;<a href=3D=<br>
>>> >>"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>>you&quot; pos=<br>
>>> >>er syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>>solution,<=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we<br>
>>>really ask thi=<br>
>>> >>s question?<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>>themselves wha=<br>
>>> >>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we<br>
>>>want for th=<br>
>>> >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the<br>
>>>E2E argume=<br>
>>> >>nt(s))<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the<br>
>>>problem it =<br>
>>> >>solves<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,<br>
>>>whichever vers=<br>
>>> >>ion you choose<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@d">50589DCC.2030808@d</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>>Crowcroft wrot=<br>
>>> >>e:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
>>>encourage you to=<br>
>>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1<br>
>>>pointer was give=<br>
>>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of<br>
>>>whether this thr=<br>
>>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was<br>
>>>not relevant=<br>
>>> >>...<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>> >>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.<br>
>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=<br>
>>> >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D=<br>
>>> >>"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=</a><br>
>>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>>&lt;span dir=3D3=<br>
>>> >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>> >>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=<br>
>>> >>.crowcroft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>>class=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>>solid;padding-=<br>
>>> >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>>exist sinc=<br>
>>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>>networks, vehic=<br>
>>> >>ular networ=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
>>>href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quo=<br>
>>> >>t; target=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D=<br>
>>> >>"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>>we can imag=<br>
>>> >>ine and=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not<br>
>>>the inters=<br>
>>> >>ection of o=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep<br>
>>>2012 17:4=<br>
>>> >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.">pars.mutaf@gmail.</a>=<br>
>>> >>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=<br>
>>> >>utaf@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br<br>
>>>type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=<br>
>>> >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=<br>
>>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br>
>>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=<br>
>>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span<br>
>>>dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>>> >>3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft</a>=<br>
>>> >>@<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=<br>
>>> >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>>style=3D3D&quot;margin:=<br>
>>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=<br>
>>> >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the<br>
>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=<br>
>>> >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for<br>
>>>the Intern=<br>
>>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for<br>
>>>example, they di=<br>
>>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do<br>
>>>we want f=<br>
>>> >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=<br>
>>> >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E<br>
>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it<br>
>>>solves&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br>
>>>version you c=<br>
>>> >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto=<br>
>>> >>:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>>tar=<br>
>>> >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>>typed:&lt=<br>
>>> >>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=<br>
>>> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>>href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=<br>
>>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c</a>=<br>
>>> >>om"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>>target=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@m</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=<br>
>>> >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0<br>
>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=<br>
>>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0<br>
>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=<br>
>>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br>
>>>this thread=<br>
>>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>>relevant...=<br>
>>> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg<br>
>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"http:=<br>
>>> >>//<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>>target=3D3D&quot;_b=<br>
>>> >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span<br>
>>>class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=<br>
>>> >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=<br>
>>> >>get=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=<br>
>>> >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/=<br>
>>> >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br<br>
>>>clear=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>>> >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>>href=3D"http://=<br>
>>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank">on=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=<br>
>>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=<br>
>>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=<br>
>>> >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=<br>
>>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>>target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>><br>
<br>
</div></div> cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>