<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
In missive <<a href="mailto:CACQuieamtc5eUqPHhe8toFtOy5zJ9zRBwWFQCN-NCwr0BSxwyQ@mail.gmail.com">CACQuieamtc5eUqPHhe8toFtOy5zJ9zRBwWFQCN-NCwr0BSxwyQ@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
s Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.<br>
>>One balloon can cover a very large area.<br>
<br>
no it cant - the phone signal wont reach it from far away (e.g. > 5k)<br>
so you need lots of ballons and the ballons have to coordinate and users<br>
move around and their batteries go flat faster co they have to boost the tx<br>
signal and rx sensitivity to max<br></blockquote><div><br>Lets try this before saying that it doesn't work. <br><br>MANET is not a solution. Because it doesn't work for distant users, partitioned<br>networks is not a small detail. It is fatal.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
the area of some disasters (especially ones that wreck the infrastructure,<br>
like earthquales, tsunamis, hurricanes etc) aren't just trainwrecks (like<br>
this discussion) - they can be very very wide area...<br>
<br>
and the ballons move around in th wind, so you have to do dynamic, er, ad<br>
hoc routing between ballons<br></blockquote><div><br>You are anticipating too much. Just deploy one and see how it works. <br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
unless you have backhaul back to the cellular network (e.g. via satellite)<br>
but that will take yet more power and introduce delays and be expensive and<br>
so on<br>
<br></blockquote><div> </div><div>Of course, (this was explained in the provided link), the balloon is a relay to the <br>
satellite. We use a normal phone. The result will that of a satellite phone.<br><br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.<br>
<br>
>>The point is that:<br>
>>MANET Doesn't work.<br>
<br>
you claim - i've seen working manets - earliest one was in Land Rovers<br>
driving aroun the Malvern Hills at RSRE in 1986 - worked fine...<br>
<br>
>>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution...<br>
<br>
yes, you need a non network solution - you need things like<br>
safe water, safe food, dry land,<br>
and your wits.<br></blockquote><div><br>No my leg is broken I am bleeding. I need to call someone. <br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in<br>
>>> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
>>> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br>
>>> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
>>><br>
>>> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br>
>>> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br>
>>> the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
>>><br>
>>> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br>
>>> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br>
>>> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br>
>>> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br>
>>> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br>
>>> optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> the balloons are visible here<br>
>>> <a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a><br>
>>> if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> >>> hand<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br>
>>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>> >>> target for the other side<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>
>>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just<br>
>>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<br>
>>> >>infrastructure<br>
>>> >>network.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> In missive<br>
>>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br>
>>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>> >><<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA<br>
>>> Packet<br>
>>> >>> radio<br>
>>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one <a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for<br>
>>> >>> anything<br>
>>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all<br>
>>> communications,<br>
>>> >>> not the<br>
>>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>> >>> >>>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this<br>
>>> question?<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is<br>
>>> used<br>
>>> >>> for.<br>
>>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"<br>
>>> but I<br>
>>> >>> am<br>
>>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> >>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> <a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work<br>
>>> (many<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
>>> >>> relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or<br>
>>> has any<br>
>>> >>> hope<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> of<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>>>> >> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>> jon<br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>> --<br>
>>> >>> >>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >>>><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=</a><br>
>>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=<br>
>>> >>> >>quote"><br>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
>>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=<br>
>>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft@cl=<br>
>>> >>> >>.<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>> >>> style=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA<br>
>>> Packet<br>
>>> >>> rad=<br>
>>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,<br>
>>> vehicular<br>
>>> >>> networ=<br>
>>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>> >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=<br>
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can<br>
>>> >>> imagine and=<br>
>>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the<br>
>>> intersection<br>
>>> >>> of o=<br>
>>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars<br>
>>> Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>> >>> &lt=<br>
>>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf@gmail=<br>
>>> >>> >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=<br>
>>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17<br>
>>> PM, Jon<br>
>>> >>> Cro=<br>
>>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> <a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =<br>
>>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=<br>
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
>>> .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> >>> #cc=<br>
>>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I<br>
>>> didn&#39;t<br>
>>> >>> chang=<br>
>>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we<br>
>>> really<br>
>>> >>> ask t=<br>
>>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>> >>> themselves wh=<br>
>>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>> >>> Internet&quot;=<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=<br>
>>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0pt<br>
>>> >>> 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br><br>
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you<br>
>>> choose<br><br>
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_=<br>
>>> >>> >>blank"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
>>> >>> Par<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the<br>
>>> relevant<br>
>>> >>> prior=<br>
>>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>> >>> Crowcroft), it=<br>
>>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
>>> or has<br>
>>> >>> any=<br>
>>> >>> >> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> </a><b=<br>
>>> >>> >>r><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span<br>
>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=<br>
>>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> </a><br><=<br>
>>> >>> >>br><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> >>> <a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=<br>
>>> >>> >><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> cheers<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>> jon<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
>>> Crowcroft =<br>
>>> >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>> wrote:<br><blockquote=<br>
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> soli=<br>
>>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br><br>
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br><br>
>>> >>hand<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br><br>
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39;<br>
>>> task=<br>
>>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare<br>
>>> them.<br><br>=<br>
>>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0.8e=<br>
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in<br>
>>> a di=<br>
>>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the<br>
>>> netw=<br>
>>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low<br>
>>> probability to=<br>
>>> >> work.<br><br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0pt =<br>
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br><br>
>>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do<br>
>>> not =<br>
>>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do<br>
>>> obscur=<br>
>>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most<br>
>>> expensive=<br>
>>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt<br>
>>> 0pt =<br>
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br><br>
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
>>> dangerous*.=<br>
>>> >> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote<br>
>>> class=<br>
>>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> solid rg=<br>
>>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote" st=<br>
>>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>> rgb(204,204,204);padd=<br>
>>> >>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>In missive<br>
>>> &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@mail.gma=<br>
>>> >>il.<br><br>
>>> >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=</a><br>
>>> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=</a><br>
>>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> ">jon.crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist<br>
>>> since AR=<br>
>>> >>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,<br>
>>> veh=<br>
>>> >>icular<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>=<br>
>>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all<br>
>>> communi=<br>
>>> >>cations, not the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a<br>
>>> href=3D=<br>
>>> >>"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> ">Jon.Crowc=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot;<br>
>>> pos=<br>
>>> >>er syndrome<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>> solution,<=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask<br>
>>> thi=<br>
>>> >>s question?<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves<br>
>>> wha=<br>
>>> >>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want<br>
>>> for th=<br>
>>> >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E<br>
>>> argume=<br>
>>> >>nt(s))<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the problem<br>
>>> it =<br>
>>> >>solves<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever<br>
>>> vers=<br>
>>> >>ion you choose<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> 50589DCC.2030808@d=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> wrot=<br>
>>> >>e:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage<br>
>>> you to=<br>
>>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was<br>
>>> give=<br>
>>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this<br>
>>> thr=<br>
>>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>> relevant=<br>
>>> >>...<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> target=<br>
>>> >>=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>> >>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.<br>
>>> See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=<br>
>>> >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> href=3D=<br>
>>> >>"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=</a><br>
>>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br><br>
>>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span<br>
>>> dir=3D3=<br>
>>> >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=<br>
>>> >>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=<br>
>>> >>.crowcroft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>> solid;padding-=<br>
>>> >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist<br>
>>> sinc=<br>
>>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,<br>
>>> vehic=<br>
>>> >>ular networ=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
>>> href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a><br>
>>> </a>&quo=<br>
>>> >>t; target=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D=<br>
>>> >>"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything we can<br>
>>> imag=<br>
>>> >>ine and=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not the<br>
>>> inters=<br>
>>> >>ection of o=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012<br>
>>> 17:4=<br>
>>> >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> pars.mutaf@gmail.=<br>
>>> >>com"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=<br>
>>> >>utaf@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br<br>
>>> type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=<br>
>>> >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>> #ccc s=<br>
>>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br>
>>> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=<br>
>>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>> href=3D=<br>
>>> >>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> Jon.Crowcroft=<br>
>>> >>@<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=<br>
>>> >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>> style=3D3D&quot;margin:=<br>
>>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for you&amp;quot;<br>
>>> poser sy=<br>
>>> >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>> solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the<br>
>>> assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=<br>
>>> >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for the<br>
>>> Intern=<br>
>>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for example,<br>
>>> they di=<br>
>>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do we<br>
>>> want f=<br>
>>> >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>> >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=<br>
>>> >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E<br>
>>> argument(s))&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it<br>
>>> solves&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever version<br>
>>> you c=<br>
>>> >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>> href=3D"mailto=<br>
>>> >>:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> tar=<br>
>>> >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">=<br>
>>> >><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker<br>
>>> typed:&lt=<br>
>>> >>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> wrote:&=<br>
>>> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>> href=3D3D=<br>
>>> >>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a><br>
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=<br>
>>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c=<br>
>>> >>om"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> target=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>> >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<br>
>>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@m=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
>>> </a>&=<br>
>>> >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;<br>
>>> I e=<br>
>>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1<br>
>>> point=<br>
>>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
>>> relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>> >>br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether this<br>
>>> thread=<br>
>>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>> relevant...=<br>
>>> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg<br>
>>> InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>> href=3D"http:=<br>
>>> >>//<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>> target=3D3D&quot;_b=<br>
>>> >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt=<br>
>>> >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>> color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>> >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span<br>
>>> class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=<br>
>>> >>><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font<br>
>>> color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=<br>
>>> >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>"<br>
>>> tar=<br>
>>> >>get=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a><br>
>>> </a>&q=<br>
>>> >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt;/=<br>
>>> >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br<br>
>>> clear=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>>> >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>> href=3D"http://=<br>
>>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>> target=3D"_blank">on=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>> href=<br>
>>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=<br>
>>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a><br>
>>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=<br>
>>> >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0cheers<br><br>
>>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a<br>
>>> href=<br>
>>> >>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
>>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6<br>
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
>>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. <br><br>
>><br><br>
>>One balloon can cover a very large area. <br><br>
>><br><br>
>>But that&#39;s not the point. There are also other solutions. <br><br>
>><br><br>
>>The point is that: <br><br>
>><br><br>
>>MANET Doesn&#39;t work. <br><br>
>><br><br>
>>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution..=<br>
>>.<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:0=<br>
>>4 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@c">Jon.Crowcroft@c</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://l.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">l.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wr=<br>
>>ote:<br><br>
>><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=<br>
>>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">the resources to put enough ballons (as many=<br>
>> as cell towers) in<br><br>
>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br><br>
>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br><br>
>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br><br>
>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br><br>
>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br><br>
>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br><br>
>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br><br>
>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br><br>
>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br><br>
>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>the balloons are visible here<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://xkcd.com/1110/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</a></=<br>
>>a><br><br>
>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im"><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA@mail.g=<br>
>>mail.<br><br>
>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=<br>
>><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have be=<br>
>>en studied in<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they=<br>
>> have to<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; hand<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,=<br>
>> japan,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you d=<br>
>>esribed<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39; task of course.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;because they are too far away from the rest of the network=<br>
>>.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to w=<br>
>>ork.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is =<br>
>>a great<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target for the other side<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really rese=<br>
>>arch,<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;because they do obscure things that we do not even know. T=<br>
>>hey can just<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;use the most expensive satellite phones. They =<br>
>>do not care.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon wo=<br>
>>uld be a big<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under brid=<br>
>>ges.<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;infrastructure<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;network.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+J=<br>
>>zTx6F5g@mail.gmail.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enou=<br>
>>gh Jon. See:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=</a><br>
>>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=</a><br>
>>il-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<=<br>
>>br><br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jo">jo</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:n.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">n.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use case=<br>
>>s exist since ARPA Packet<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; radio<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster =<br>
>>recovery networks, vehicular<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually =<br>
>>in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; anything<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the unio=<br>
>>n of all communications,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not the<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one t=<br>
>>echnology.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot=<br>
>>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&gt; =<br>
>>wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cr=<br>
>>owcroft &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about =<br>
>>as the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even f=<br>
>>or you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a wor=<br>
>>kable solution,<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the=<br>
>> problem) changes the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet?=<br>
>> Did we really ask this question?<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not as=<br>
>>k themselves what it is used<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; for.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What d=<br>
>>o we want for the Internet&quot; =A0but I<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; am<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (an=<br>
>>d the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change=<br>
>> the problem it solves<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it =<br>
>>still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50">50</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Cr=<br>
>>ocker typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jo=<br>
>>n Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-x">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-x</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=<br>
>><a href="mailto:C2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">C2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I =<br>
>>encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 =<br>
>>pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relev=<br>
>>ant.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of =<br>
>>whether this thread has been, or has any<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; hope<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it =<br>
>>was not relevant...<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg Internet=<br>
>>Working<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"<a href="http://bb" target="_blank">http://bb</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://iw.net" target="_blank">iw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-sci" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-sci</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ence.org" target="_blank">ence.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt;br&gt;&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank">http:=<br>
>>//<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target="_blank">www.ietf.org/=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quo=<br>
>>t;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a>" target=3D"_bla=<br>
>>nk"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jo=<br>
>>n Crowcroft &lt;span<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a =<br>
>>hr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcr">jon.crowcr</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:oft@cl.cam.ac.uk">oft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon.crowcroft@cl=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote=<br>
>> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; style=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=<br>
>>px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use =<br>
>>cases exist since ARPA Packet<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; rad=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery=<br>
>> networks, vehicular<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networ=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one=<br>
>> &lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank">http://=<br>
>><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thi" target="_blank">http://thi</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ng.it" target="_blank">ng.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anyt=<br>
>>hing we can<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; imagine and=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communic=<br>
>>ations, not the intersection<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; of o=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&=<br>
>>gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:p">p</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:ars.mutaf@gmail.com">ars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.mutaf@gmail=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br type=3D3D&qu=<br>
>>ot;attribution&quot;&gt;&lt;blockquote<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=<br>
>>-left:1px #ccc<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quo=<br>
>>t;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Cro=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;=<br>
>>lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft=<br>
>>@<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mail=<br>
>><a href="mailto:to%3AJon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">to:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp=<br>
>>;gt;&lt;/span&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; s=<br>
>>tyle=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; #cc=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for you&am=<br>
>>p;quot; poser syndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable s=<br>
>>olution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) cha=<br>
>>nges the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/block=<br>
>>quote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; chang=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do =<br>
>>we want for the Internet? Did we really<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; ask t=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for =<br>
>>example, they did not ask<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; themselves wh=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot=<br>
>> explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;=<br>
>>quot;What do we want for the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. &lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cheers,<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=<br>
>>-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E=<br>
>>2E argument(s))&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem =<br>
>>it solves&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#3=<br>
>>9;t solve, whichever version you choose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<=<br>
>>a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.n=<br>
>>et</a>&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.203080">50589DCC.203080</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:8@dcrocker.net">8@dcrocker.net</a>"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave C=<br>
>>rocker typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2=<br>
>>012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt=<br>
>>;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BV">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BV</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:q2A@mail.gmail.com">q2A@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1t">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1t</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:FcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">FcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mai=<br>
>><a href="http://l.gmail.com" target="_blank">l.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; prior=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp=<br>
>>;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Crowcroft), it=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whe=<br>
>>ther this thread has been, or has<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; any=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was=<br>
>> not relevant...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt=<br>
>>;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetW=<br>
>>orking&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;=<br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; tar=<br>
>>get=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"=<br>
>>><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quo=<br>
>>t;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt=<br>
>>;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot=<br>
>>;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" target=3D"_blank">ht=<br>
>>tp://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://content-based-science.org" target="_blank">content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scie" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scie</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://nce.org" target="_blank">nce.org</a></a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt=<br>
>>;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br =<br>
>>clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=<br>
>>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&qu=<br>
>>ot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a>=<br>
>></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On Wed,=<br>
>> Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&l=<br>
>>t;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon=<br>
>>.<a href="mailto:Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; target=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.ca">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.ca</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://m.ac.uk" target="_blank">m.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrot=<br>
>>e:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt; class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:=<br>
>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;d;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied =<br>
>>in&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with resources they ha=<br>
>>ve to&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;hand&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japa=<br>
>>n,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desrib=<br>
>>ed&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;Preparing the =<br>
>>balloons is not the users&amp;#39; task=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; of course. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Organizations like red cross wil=<br>
>>l prepare them.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quo=<br>
>>t;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;what many DO have is phones and laptops.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;manets can be usefully built out of these.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;saster scenario &lt;br&gt;because they are too far away from the=<br>
>> rest of the netw=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ork. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So MANET is not only useless, it has a =<br>
>>very low probability to=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt; work.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=<br>
>>quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=<br>
>>ot;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is=<br>
>> a great&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;target for the other side&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockq=<br>
>>uote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I personally do not =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;argue for the army.. This is not really research,&lt;br&gt;becau=<br>
>>se they do obscur=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e things that we do not even know. They can just &lt;br&gt;use t=<br>
>>he most expensive=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; satellite phones. They do not care. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=<br>
>>quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=<br>
>>ot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would b=<br>
>>e a big&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; Just use the infrastructure &lt;br&gt;network.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0p=<br>
>>t 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;your move, sunshine.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&=<br>
>>lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; st=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;yle=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=<br>
>>id rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;ing-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+Jz=<br>
>>Tx6F5g@mail.gma=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;il.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;com&amp;gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D3DISO-8=<br>
>>859-1&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;h5&quot;&gt;=3DA0&amp;g=<br>
>>t;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a h=<br>
>>ref=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D</a>" target=3D"=<br>
>>_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;g12602.html&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"ht=<br>
>>tp://<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target="_blank">www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target="_blank">ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;urrent/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowc=<br>
>>roft&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&q=<br>
>>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@cl.c=<br>
>><a href="http://am.ac.uk" target="_blank">am.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;jon.crowcroft@=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></=<br>
>>a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many=<br>
>> use cases exist since AR=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;PA Packet radio&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; days. Battlefield networks, disast=<br>
>>er recovery networks, veh=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;icular&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; networks...some actually in use ad=<br>
>> deployed.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; The internet isn=<br>
>>&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a>" targe=<br>
>>t=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing" target="_blank">http://thing</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;.it&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http=<br>
>>://<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, fo=<br>
>>r anything&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; we can imagine and realize...it is=<br>
>> the union of all communi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;cations, not the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; intersection of one notion with on=<br>
>>e technology.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On 18 Sep 2012 1=<br>
>>7:48, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>">pars.mutaf@=<br>
>><a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>">pars.mutaf@g=<br>
>><a href="http://mail.com" target="_blank">mail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:=<br>
>>17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &amp;lt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=<br>
>><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowc=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:roft@cl.cam.ac.uk">roft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>=<br>
>>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; this is what we us=<br>
>>ed to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;quot;my probl=<br>
>>em is too hard even for you&amp;quot; pos=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;er syndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; basically, wheneve=<br>
>>r you offer a workable solution,&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; the poser (of the =<br>
>>problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; No I didn&amp;#39;t =<br>
>>change the problem:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; What do we want for the In=<br>
>>ternet? Did we really ask thi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;s question?&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take MANET for example, th=<br>
>>ey did not ask themselves wha=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;t it is used for.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; They cannot explain.&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I would start a new thread=<br>
>> &amp;quot;What do we want for th=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e Internet&amp;quot; =3DA0but I am&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; not sure if I should do th=<br>
>>is.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Cheers,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Pars&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; one of the nice th=<br>
>>ings about IP (and the E2E argume=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;nt(s))&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is that it is real=<br>
>>ly hard to change the problem it =3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;solves&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; in a way it still =<br>
>>doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever vers=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ion you choose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; (well, ok, maybe n=<br>
>>ot IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt=<br>
>>;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@d">50589DCC.2030808@d</a>">50589DCC=<br>
>>.2030808@d</a>=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">http://crocker.net</a>" target=3D"_blank">crocker.n=<br>
>>et</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.2=<br>
>><a href="mailto:030808@dcrocker.net">030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt;br&gt;<br=<br>
>>><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;e:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt=<br>
>>;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i</a>=<br>
>>DwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">2BV2X=<br>
>><a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i=<br>
>>DwO+V2X=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a>">V1tFcP5PgT+V=<br>
>><a href="mailto:q2A@mail.gmail.com">q2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt=<br>
>>;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I encourage you to=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; read the relevant prior work (many&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; pointers were give=<br>
>>n)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 pointer was give=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ead has been, or has any hope&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; of&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;...&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&amp;gt=<br>
>>;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =<br>
>>=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" tar=<br>
>>get=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0cheers&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; --&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hr=<br>
>>ef=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.co" target="_blank">http://www.co</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ntent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ntent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ww.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">ww.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-sc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-sc</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ience.org" target="_blank">ience.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a h=<br>
>>ref=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.c" target="_blank">http://www.c</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blan=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;k&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b=<br>
>>204ca091b8d&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D3DISO-88=<br>
>>59-1&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable=<br>
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&amp;lt=<br>
>>;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a hr=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a hre=<br>
>>f=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D=" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D=</a><br>
>></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>" target=3D"=<br>
>>_blank"><a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D" target="_blank">http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a>" target=3D"_blank">ww.ietf.o=<br>
>>rg/=3D3D</a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.htm=<br>
>>l&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a>" target=3D"_=<br>
>>blank"><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank=<br>
>>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ww" target="_blank">http://ww</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://w.ietf.org/ma=3D" target="_blank">w.ietf.org/ma=3D</a></a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;il-arch=3D3D&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&amp;lt;=<br>
>>/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div class=3D3D3D&am=<br>
>>p;quot;gmail_=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon=<br>
>> Crowcroft &amp;lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;D&amp;quot;ltr&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&a=<br>
>>mp;lt;a hr=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ef=3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a href=3D3D&q=<br>
>>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@cl.c=<br>
>><a href="http://am.ac.uk" target="_blank">am.ac.uk</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jo=<br>
>><a href="mailto:n.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">n.crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_bl=<br>
>>ank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;jon=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;.crowcroft@cl=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;.&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam" target="_blank">http://cam</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blan=<br>
>>k&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;=<br>
>>/a&gt;&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt; wrote:&amp;lt;br&am=<br>
>>p;gt;&amp;lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;gmail_quote&amp;quot; style=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=<br>
>>eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;Take the MANET example, su=<br>
>>re. Many use cases exist sinc=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disast=<br>
>>er recovery networks, vehic=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ular networ=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&amp;=<br>
>>lt;/p&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;The internet isn&amp;amp;#=<br>
>>39;t for just one &amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http=<br>
>>://<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_=<br>
>>blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thing.i" target="_blank">http://thing.i</a>=<br>
>>t</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quo=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;t; target=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&l=<br>
>>t;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://thi" target="_blank">http://thi</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ng.it" target="_blank">ng.it</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D"_bla=<br>
>>nk"><a href="http://thing.it" target="_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt; is, by definition, for anythin=<br>
>>g we can imag=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ine and=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; realize...it is the union of all com=<br>
>>munications, not the inters=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;ection of o=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;ne notion with one technology.&amp;lt;/p&am=<br>
>>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quo=<br>
>>te&amp;quot;&amp;gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;8, &amp;amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;amp;quot; &amp;amp;lt=3D3D&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;=<br>
>>a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail">pars.mutaf@gmail</a>.">pars.mutaf@gma=<br>
>>il.</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;com&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:pars.mutaf@gmail.com">pars.mutaf@gmail.com</a>">pars.mutaf@=<br>
>><a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;pars.m=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;utaf@gmail=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;.com&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; wrote:&a=<br>
>>mp;lt;br type=3D3D3D&amp;quot;attribution&amp;q=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;uot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quot=<br>
>>=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;e&amp;quot; style=3D3D3D&amp;quot;mar=<br>
>>gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;olid;padding-left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt=<br>
>>;div class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;wcroft &amp;lt;span dir=3D3D3D&amp;qu=<br>
>>ot;ltr&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto=<br>
>>:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></=<br>
>>a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></=<br>
>>a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; =3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp=<br>
>>;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft</a>">Jon.Crowcr=<br>
>>oft</a>=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;@<a href=3D"<a href="http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.=<br>
>><a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcr=<br>
>><a href="mailto:oft@cl.cam.ac.uk">oft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&a=<br>
>>mp;gt=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;; wrote:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;bloc=3D3D&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quote&am=<br>
>>p;quot; style=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&amp;quot;&am=<br>
>>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&a=<br>
>>mp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;quot;my problem is too hard even f=<br>
>>or you&amp;amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ndrome&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;basically, whenever you offer a worka=<br>
>>ble solution,&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&amp;=<br>
>>lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;problem (or the assumptions)&amp;lt;br&amp;=<br>
>>gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;No I didn&amp;amp;#3=<br>
>>9;t chang=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;e the problem:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>lt;br&amp;gt;What do we want for the Intern=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;et? Did we really ask t=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;his question?&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;l=<br>
>>t;br&amp;gt;Take MANET for example, they di=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;d not ask themselves wh=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;at it is used for. They cannot explai=<br>
>>n. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;I would start a new threa=<br>
>>d &amp;amp;quot;What do we want f=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;or the Internet&amp;amp;quot;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I should=<br>
>> do this. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;;Cheers, &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Pars&amp;lt;br&amp;=<br>
>>gt;=3D3DA0&amp;lt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;block=<br>
>>quote class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quo=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;t; style=3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=<br>
>>dding-left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2=<br>
>>E argument(s))&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;is that it is really hard to change the pro=<br>
>>blem it solves&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;amp;#39;t solve=<br>
>>, whichever version you c=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;hoose&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&amp;lt;br&amp;g=<br>
>>t;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3=<br>
>>D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.20308=<br>
>><a href="mailto:08@dcrocker.net">08@dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.ne">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.ne</a>=<br>
>>t"><a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; tar=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot=<br>
>>;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.2030808@d=<br>
>><a href="http://crocker.net" target="_blank">crocker.net</a></a>&quot;&gt;=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net</a>">50589DCC.=<br>
>><a href="mailto:2030808@dcrocker.net">2030808@dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;, Dave Croc=<br>
>>ker typed:&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div&amp;gt;&amp;=<br>
>>lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;On 9/18/2012=<br>
>> 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>> In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<=<br>
>>a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>=<br>
>>&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;xxaeC2iWfM&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=<br>
>>to:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP=<br>
>>5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.c</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;om&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A@">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&=<br>
>>amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=<br>
>>to:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw=<br>
>>O%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@m</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">http://ail.gmail.com</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ail.gmail.com" target="_blank">ail.gmail.com</a>=<br>
>></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:A@mail.gmail.com">A@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A@mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@mail.gmail.com</a></=<br>
>>a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;, Par&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>> s Mutaf typed:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>>&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>> =3D3DA0 &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; I e=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; work (many pointers were given)&amp;=<br>
>>lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>> =3D3DA0 &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D&lt;br=<br>
>>&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is not relevant.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&l=<br>
>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>>&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;=<br>
>> it is exactly relevant.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;in the broad=<br>
>>er sense of whether this thread=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt; has been, or has any=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; hope of&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;being, const=<br>
>>ructive, it was not relevant...=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;d/&amp;lt;br=<br>
>>&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;--&amp;lt;br=<br>
>>&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave=<br>
>> Crocker&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3DA0Bran=<br>
>>denburg InternetWorking&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3DA0&amp=<br>
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;http:=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;//<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank=<br>
>>"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbi" target="_blank">http://bbi</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://w.net" target="_blank">w.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; target=3D3=<br>
>>D3D&amp;quot;_b=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;lank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http=<br>
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>>blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://bbiw.net" target="_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&l=<br>
>>t;/a&gt;&amp;lt=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;=<br>
>>gt;=3D3DA0cheers&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=3D3D=<br>
>>3D&amp;quot;#888888&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&=<br>
>>amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;gt;&amp;lt;br clear=3D3D3D&amp;quot;all&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt=<br>
>>;span class=3D3D3D&amp;quot;HOEnZ=3D3D&lt;br=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;b&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=3D3D3=<br>
>>D&amp;quot;#888888&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;-=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;- &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;=<br>
>>quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" target=3D"=<br>
>>_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>&quot; tar=3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.conten" target="_blank">http://www.conten</a>=<br>
>>t-based-s" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D&=<br>
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cien" target="_blank">http://cien</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ce.org" target="_blank">ce.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_bla=<br>
>>nk&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&=<br>
>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;q=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;uot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=<br>
>>=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" target=3D"_blank">http://=<br>
>>www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=<br>
>>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cience.org" target="_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/=<br>
>>a&gt;&amp;lt;/=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
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>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&=<br>
>>amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp=<br>
>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br clear=3D3D3D&amp;quot;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;all&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;-- &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp=<br>
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;http://=3D<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;www.c&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<=<br>
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>>t;br&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http:=<br>
>>//<a href="http://ontent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ontent-based-science.o" target="_blank">http://ontent-based-science.o</a>=<br>
>>rg</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;on=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://tent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://tent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">tent=<br>
>>-<a href="http://based-science.org" target="_blank">based-science.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&am=<br>
>>p;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D<br><br>
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>>"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-scienc" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&=<br>
>>quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-b" target="_blank">http://www.content-b</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>>ent-b</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ased-scienc&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.or" target="_blank">http://e.or</a>=<br>
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>>t;<a href=3D"<a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://e.org" target="_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&=<br>
>>amp;gt;&amp;l=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;t;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&a=<br>
>>mp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--&lt;br&gt;<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZb&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quo=<br>
>>t;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D=<br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&qu=<br>
>>ot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.cont</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://ent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">ent-b=<br>
>><a href="http://ased-science.org" target="_blank">ased-science.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"=<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-" target="_blank">http://www.content-</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://based-science.org" target="_blank">based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>