Hi Jon, <br><br>I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning of your message: <br><br>You are basically telling to me to go to a conference or journal. :-)<br><br>No problem but we cannot discuss it here publicly? I am not interested in <br>
author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss publicly. <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a><br><br>The first question that we need to answer is what we want, before proposing solutions.<br>
I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what they wish. <br>All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and be reachable to others. <br><br>All of them are correct. <br><br>Thanks<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network<br>
architectures nearly 10 years ago<br>
<a href="http://www.cs.ubc.ca/%7Eandy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf</a><br>
<br>
no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP<br>
and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish -<br>
actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and another<br>
already<br>
<br>
you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of<br>
headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential<br>
the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name<br>
spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3<br>
<a href="http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf" target="_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just<br>
using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques<br>
<br>
there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research<br>
programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical<br>
problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example<br>
<a href="http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/" target="_blank">http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/</a><br>
<br>
e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes<br>
have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of<br>
deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a<br>
bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or<br>
massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc)<br>
<br>
communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm<br>
and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others...<br>
<br>
ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report<br>
<a href="http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf</a><br>
amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire<br>
DAGs coded in packets (efficiently)<br>
<br>
there's so much exciting new stuff out there....<br>
<br>
<br>
on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff<br>
exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in<br>
the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project<br>
folks' paper on<br>
How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP<br>
at<br>
<a href="https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions" target="_blank">https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions</a><br>
<br>
and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had<br>
to empoy to get small changes into TCP:<br>
Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible<br>
with TCP and TLS<br>
<br>
In missive <CACQuieYAU+O1bXYdM+ZJsknXE=<a href="mailto:8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com">8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
s Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<div><div class="h5"> >><br>
>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken<br>
>>seriously<br>
>>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in fact<br>
>>a PhD in<br>
>>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey.<br>
>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your<br>
>>imagination ;-).<br>
>>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic):<br>
>><br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>>What is important is the content. Not the name.<br>
>><br>
>>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read<br>
>>the<br>
>>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br>
>>-----<br>
>><br>
>>Dear colleagues,<br>
>><br>
>>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would<br>
>>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.<br>
>>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles<br>
>>therefore it is economically more viable.<br>
>><br>
>>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the end of<br>
>>centuries of research.***<br>
>><br>
>>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>
>>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does.<br>
>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because<br>
>>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks<br>
>>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not<br>
>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown<br>
>>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not<br>
>>have to.<br>
>>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for<br>
>>example TCP.<br>
>>-This is the end-to-end principle.<br>
>><br>
>>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running<br>
>>random IP versions):<br>
>><a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br>
>>The question is:<br>
>>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question<br>
>>without entering in design challenges.***<br>
>><br>
>>For more information, see my unpublished paper:<br>
>><br>
>><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a><br>
>><br>
>>Cheers,<br>
>>Pars<br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br>
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken serio=<br>
>>usly<br>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have =<br>
>>in fact a PhD in <br>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst =<br>
>>prof. in Turkey. <br><br>
>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your imaginati=<br>
>>on ;-). <br>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic=<br>
>>):<br><br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a>"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ent-based-science.org/" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org/</a></a><br><br>
>><br>What is important is the content. Not the name.<br><br>Now back to our =<br>
>>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the <br>message ag=<br>
>>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br>-----<br><br>Dear colleagu=<br>
>>es,<br><br>
>><br>I believe that the next step in IP&#39;s evolution would not be IPv6. I=<br>
>>t would<br>be &quot;Discrete IP&quot; allowing any IP version.<br>I conclud=<br>
>>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles<br>therefore =<br>
>>it is economically more viable.<br><br>
>><br>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the e=<br>
>>nd of<br>centuries of research.***<br><br>-I propose that we do not touch t=<br>
>>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>modification of all Internet routers,=<br>
>> this is what IPv6 does.<br><br>
>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because<br>d=<br>
>>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks<=<br>
>>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is n=<br>
>>ot<br><br>
>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown<=<br>
>>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not<=<br>
>>br>have to.<br>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-n=<br>
>>odes, for<br><br>
>>example TCP.<br>-This is the end-to-end principle.<br><br>Here is a picture=<br>
>> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running<br>random IP versi=<br>
>>ons):<br><a href=3D"<a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=</a><br>
>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"><a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=</a><br>
>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br><br>
>>The question is:<br>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please dis=<br>
>>cuss this question<br>without entering in design challenges.***<br><br>For =<br>
>>more information, see my unpublished paper:<br><br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.sc" target="_blank">http://www.sc</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a>"><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=</a><br>
>>crete-IP</a><br><br>
>><br>Cheers,<br>Pars<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://nt-based-science.org" target="_blank">nt-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.or" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or</a>=<br>
>>g</a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>