<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I'm not saying you need to go to a conference or journal, except from the<br>
point of view of finding out what else is going on (which is a lot)<br>
<br>
note a lot of the papers these people write are not just "academic" - the<br>
pointers I have are to groups who work with industry - for example, with<br>
ISPs, router vendors, cloud service providers, and the papers I prefer to<br>
mention are not just "paper" studies or simulations, but involve real code<br>
(just like the IETF, and just like vendors)<br>
<br>
the trilogy project is probabl a good example of how to work with a bunch<br>
of different types of groups, and has delivered work into the IETF which<br>
could see real deployment (first off in mobile devices and data centers,<br>
then more widely spread) - its also a great example of how much "heavy<br>
lifting" you have to do to get from a Great Idea, to getting a lot of<br>
people on your side and trying things out, and doing all the<br>
implementation, testing, deployment, debugging, re-deployment etc etc<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>Yes. That's what I am doing in my way. I want to understand first what we <br>want exactly. I don't want to find out this alone in my office. The work is more <br>important than my name. <br>
<br>Is there a real need for more IP space in the first place for example? <br>NATs are working well. Why optimizing NAT traversal is not a better solution <br>until someone gets a better idea 50 years later, etc. <br><br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
IPv6 is/was, in my view, another example of such a massive effort and<br>
although it is flawed (it was the result of a compromise between two better<br>
proposals which were each potentially much easier to deploy, but polarised<br>
people, and the solution was one of (in my opinion) the great failings of<br>
the IETF when it agreed to combine them (a committee type decision) rather<br>
than just do both and see which got out most. (the two, if you want ancient<br>
history, were Steve's IP and Paul's IP (actually, those aren't their real<br>
names, but that's who they came from) - the simple internet protocol had 64<br>
bit addresses and everything else prety miuch the same - PIP had FTIFs<br>
which afforded ultrafast switching and really scalable source routing...<br>
<br>
oh well....luckly we didn't pick CLNP+NSAP (which nearly happened)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br><br>Thanks, I wasn't there but I think they were just hyperactive. They did not even <br>think about calming down and allowing others do to research on IP. (their goal is <br>to use IPv6 on *everything*)<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
In missive <<a href="mailto:CACQuieayXDJ2A%2BBPS009ZN04nz6iy7pYzPBmv%2B_wtjCqYzFnVA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CACQuieayXDJ2A+BPS009ZN04nz6iy7pYzPBmv+_wtjCqYzFnVA@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
<div><div>s Mutaf typed:<br>
<br>
>>Hi Jon,<br>
>><br>
>>I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning of your<br>
>>message:<br>
>><br>
>>You are basically telling to me to go to a conference or journal. :-)<br>
>><br>
>>No problem but we cannot discuss it here publicly? I am not interested in<br>
>>author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss<br>
>>publicly.<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>>The first question that we need to answer is what we want, before proposing<br>
>>solutions.<br>
>>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what<br>
>>they wish.<br>
>>All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and be reachable<br>
>>to others.<br>
>><br>
>>All of them are correct.<br>
>><br>
>>Thanks<br>
>><br>
>>On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>><<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network<br>
>>> architectures nearly 10 years ago<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.cs.ubc.ca/%7Eandy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP<br>
>>> and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish -<br>
>>> actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and another<br>
>>> already<br>
>>><br>
>>> you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of<br>
>>> headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential<br>
>>> the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name<br>
>>> spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3<br>
>>> <a href="http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf" target="_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just<br>
>>> using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques<br>
>>><br>
>>> there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research<br>
>>> programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical<br>
>>> problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example<br>
>>> <a href="http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/" target="_blank">http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes<br>
>>> have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of<br>
>>> deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a<br>
>>> bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or<br>
>>> massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc)<br>
>>><br>
>>> communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm<br>
>>> and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others...<br>
>>><br>
>>> ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf</a><br>
>>> amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire<br>
>>> DAGs coded in packets (efficiently)<br>
>>><br>
>>> there's so much exciting new stuff out there....<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff<br>
>>> exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in<br>
>>> the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project<br>
>>> folks' paper on<br>
>>> How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP<br>
>>> at<br>
>>> <a href="https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions" target="_blank">https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had<br>
>>> to empoy to get small changes into TCP:<br>
>>> Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible<br>
>>> with TCP and TLS<br>
>>><br>
>>> In missive <CACQuieYAU+O1bXYdM+ZJsknXE=<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken<br>
>>> >>seriously<br>
>>> >>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in<br>
>>> fact<br>
>>> >>a PhD in<br>
>>> >>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey.<br>
>>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your<br>
>>> >>imagination ;-).<br>
>>> >>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic):<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>What is important is the content. Not the name.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read<br>
>>> >>the<br>
>>> >>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br>
>>> >>-----<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Dear colleagues,<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It<br>
>>> would<br>
>>> >>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.<br>
>>> >>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles<br>
>>> >>therefore it is economically more viable.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the<br>
>>> end of<br>
>>> >>centuries of research.***<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>
>>> >>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does.<br>
>>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because<br>
>>> >>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF<br>
>>> blocks<br>
>>> >>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is<br>
>>> not<br>
>>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for<br>
>>> unknown<br>
>>> >>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not<br>
>>> >>have to.<br>
>>> >>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for<br>
>>> >>example TCP.<br>
>>> >>-This is the end-to-end principle.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets<br>
>>> running<br>
>>> >>random IP versions):<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> <a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br>
>>> >>The question is:<br>
>>> >>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this<br>
>>> question<br>
>>> >>without entering in design challenges.***<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>For more information, see my unpublished paper:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Cheers,<br>
>>> >>Pars<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--<br>
>>> >><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br>
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken<br>
>>> serio=<br>
>>> >>usly<br>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I<br>
>>> have =<br>
>>> >>in fact a PhD in <br>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an<br>
>>> asst =<br>
>>> >>prof. in Turkey. <br><br>
>>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your<br>
>>> imaginati=<br>
>>> >>on ;-). <br>Check and support my project (off-list please this is<br>
>>> off-topic=<br>
>>> >>):<br><br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a>"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ent-based-science.org/" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org/</a></a><br><br>
>>> >><br>What is important is the content. Not the name.<br><br>Now back to<br>
>>> our =<br>
>>> >>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the<br>
>>> <br>message ag=<br>
>>> >>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br>-----<br><br>Dear<br>
>>> colleagu=<br>
>>> >>es,<br><br>
>>> >><br>I believe that the next step in IP&#39;s evolution would not be<br>
>>> IPv6. I=<br>
>>> >>t would<br>be &quot;Discrete IP&quot; allowing any IP version.<br>I<br>
>>> conclud=<br>
>>> >>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end<br>
>>> principles<br>therefore =<br>
>>> >>it is economically more viable.<br><br>
>>> >><br>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is<br>
>>> the e=<br>
>>> >>nd of<br>centuries of research.***<br><br>-I propose that we do not<br>
>>> touch t=<br>
>>> >>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>modification of all Internet<br>
>>> routers,=<br>
>>> >> this is what IPv6 does.<br><br>
>>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish<br>
>>> because<br>d=<br>
>>> >>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF<br>
>>> blocks<=<br>
>>> >>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This<br>
>>> is n=<br>
>>> >>ot<br><br>
>>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for<br>
>>> unknown<=<br>
>>> >>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do<br>
>>> not<=<br>
>>> >>br>have to.<br>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the<br>
>>> end-n=<br>
>>> >>odes, for<br><br>
>>> >>example TCP.<br>-This is the end-to-end principle.<br><br>Here is a<br>
>>> picture=<br>
>>> >> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running<br>random IP<br>
>>> versi=<br>
>>> >>ons):<br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=</a><br>
>>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"><br>
>>> <a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=</a><br>
>>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br><br>
>>> >>The question is:<br>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please<br>
>>> dis=<br>
>>> >>cuss this question<br>without entering in design<br>
>>> challenges.***<br><br>For =<br>
>>> >>more information, see my unpublished paper:<br><br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.sc" target="_blank">http://www.sc</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a>"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=</a><br>
>>> >>crete-IP</a><br><br>
>>> >><br>Cheers,<br>Pars<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a>=<br>
>>> >><a href="http://nt-based-science.org" target="_blank">nt-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.content-based-science.or" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or</a>=<br>
>>> >>g</a><br><br><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c--<br>
>>><br>
>>> cheers<br>
>>><br>
>>> jon<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>--<br>
>><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>><br>
</div></div> >>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f<br>
<div> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>><br>
</div> >>Hi Jon, <br><br>I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning=<br>
>> of your message: <br><br>You are basically telling to me to go to a confer=<br>
>>ence or journal. :-)<br><br>No problem but we cannot discuss it here public=<br>
>>ly? I am not interested in <br><br>
>>author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss =<br>
>>publicly. <br><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a>"><a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">content-based-science.org/</a></a><br><br>The first question that we need to an=<br>
>>swer is what we want, before proposing solutions.<br><br>
>>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what the=<br>
>>y wish. <br>All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and =<br>
>>be reachable to others. <br><br>All of them are correct. <br><br>Thanks<br><br>
>><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcro=<br>
>>ft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">Jon.Crowcroft@cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=<br>
>>te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=<br>
>>lid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network<br><br>
>>architectures nearly 10 years ago<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.cs.ubc.ca/%7Eandy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/%7Eandy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf</a>" target=3D=<br>
>>"_blank"><a href="http://www.cs.ubc.ca/%7Eandy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf</a></a><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>no one in the IETF says you can&#39;t run multiple versions of IP<br><br>
>>and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish -<br><br>
>>actually, there&#39;s a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and ano=<br>
>>ther<br><br>
>>already<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential=<br>
>><br><br>
>>the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make =A0use of name<br><br>
>>spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf" target="_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf</a>" target=3D=<br>
>>"_blank"><a href="http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf" target="_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf</a></a><br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf</a>" target=3D"_b=<br>
>>lank"><a href="http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf</a></a><br><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research<br><br>
>>programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical<br><br>
>>problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/" target="_blank">http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://ilnp." target="_blank">http://ilnp.</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/" target="_blank">cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/</a></a><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a<br><br>
>>bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or<br><br>
>>massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc)<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others...<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20re=" target="_blank">http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20re=</a><br>
>>port%203-1.pdf" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/Ma=" target="_blank">http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/Ma=</a><br>
>>y%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf</a><br><br>
>>amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>DAGs coded in packets (efficiently)<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>there&#39;s so much exciting new stuff out there....<br><br>
>><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in=<br>
>><br><br>
>>the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project<br><br>
>>folks&#39; paper on<br><br>
>>How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP<b=<br>
>>r><br>
>>at<br><br>
>><a href=3D"<a href="https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical=" target="_blank">https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical=</a><br>
>>-sessions" target=3D"_blank"><a href="https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-=" target="_blank">https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-=</a><br>
>>schedule/technical-sessions</a><br><br>
>><br><br>
>>and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had<=<br>
>>br><br>
>>to empoy to get small changes into TCP:<br><br>
>>Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible=<br>
>><br><br>
>>with TCP and TLS<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>In missive &lt;CACQuieYAU+O1bXYdM+ZJsknXE=3D<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:8wPgzftOxKJ73" target="_blank">8wPgzftOxKJ73</a>=<br>
>><a href="mailto:Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com</a>"><a href="mailto:8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A@mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;=<br>
>>, Par<br><br>
>>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not =<br>
>>taken<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;seriously<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I ha=<br>
>>ve in fact<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;a PhD in<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in T=<br>
>>urkey.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond you=<br>
>>r<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;imagination ;-).<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic)=<br>
>>:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a>" target=3D"_bla=<br>
>>nk"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org/</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;What is important is the content. Not the name.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. =<br>
>>Now read<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-----<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Dear colleagues,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I believe that the next step in IP&#39;s evolution would not be =<br>
>>IPv6. It would<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;be &quot;Discrete IP&quot; allowing any IP version.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end prin=<br>
>>ciples<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;therefore it is economically more viable.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 i=<br>
>>s the end of<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;centuries of research.***<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce =<br>
>>the<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does.<br=<br>
>>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish b=<br>
>>ecause<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, =<br>
>>IETF blocks<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. T=<br>
>>his is not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 f=<br>
>>or unknown<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We=<br>
>> do not<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;have to.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes=<br>
>>, for<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;example TCP.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-This is the end-to-end principle.<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internet=<br>
>>s running<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;random IP versions):<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/ima=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/ima=</a><br>
>>ges/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/37=" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/37=</a><br>
>>98kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;The question is:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this=<br>
>> question<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;without entering in design challenges.***<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;For more information, see my unpublished paper:<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a>" targ=<br>
>>et=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Pars<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blan=<br>
>>k"><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not =<br>
>>taken serio=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;usly&lt;br&gt;because I am too modest. I was called a troll and =<br>
>>hobbyist. I have =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;in fact a PhD in &lt;br&gt;computer science from INRIA, France. =<br>
>>I am now an asst =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;prof. in Turkey. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond you=<br>
>>r imaginati=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;on ;-). &lt;br&gt;Check and support my project (off-list please =<br>
>>this is off-topic=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;):&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www" target="_blank">http://www</a>=<br>
>>.<a href="http://content-based-science.org/" target="_blank">content-based-science.org/</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-sci" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-sci</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ence.org/" target="_blank">ence.org/</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>" target=3D"_blank">http:/=<br>
>>/www.cont</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ent-based-science.org/" target="_blank">http://ent-based-science.org/</a>" target=3D"_blank">ent-=<br>
>><a href="http://based-science.org/" target="_blank">based-science.org/</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;What is important is the content. Not the name.&lt;br&=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;Now back to our =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the &lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;message ag=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:&lt;br&gt;-----&lt;=<br>
>>br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Dear colleagu=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;es,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I believe that the next step in IP&amp;#39;s evolution=<br>
>> would not be IPv6. I=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;t would&lt;br&gt;be &amp;quot;Discrete IP&amp;quot; allowing any=<br>
>> IP version.&lt;br&gt;I conclud=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles&lt=<br>
>>;br&gt;therefore =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;it is economically more viable.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume t=<br>
>>hat IPv6 is the e=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;nd of&lt;br&gt;centuries of research.***&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;-I p=<br>
>>ropose that we do not touch t=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;he core Internet, i.e. enforce the&lt;br&gt;modification of all =<br>
>>Internet routers,=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; this is what IPv6 does.&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish b=<br>
>>ecause&lt;br&gt;d=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, I=<br>
>>ETF blocks&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of cho=<br>
>>ice. This is n=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ot&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 f=<br>
>>or unknown&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not kn=<br>
>>ow. We do not&lt;=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;have to.&lt;br&gt;-To give such freedom of choice, we need=<br>
>> to change the end-n=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;odes, for&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;example TCP.&lt;br&gt;-This is the end-to-end principle.&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;&lt;br&gt;Here is a picture=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt; (in this picture we have a network of Internets running&lt;br&g=<br>
>>t;random IP versi=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;ons):&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://htmlimg4.s" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.s</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://cribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target="_blank">cribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://htmlimg" target="_blank">http://htmlimg</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target="_blank">4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://htmlimg4.scribdass" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdass</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target="_blank">ets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://htmlimg4.scribd" target="_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribd</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://assets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target="_blank">assets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;The question is:&lt;br&gt;***Would this be the ideal for the Int=<br>
>>ernet? Please dis=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;cuss this question&lt;br&gt;without entering in design challenge=<br>
>>s.***&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For =3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;more information, see my unpublished paper:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&=<br>
>>lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.sc" target="_blank">http://www.sc</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www." target="_blank">http://www.</a>=<br>
>>sc</a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">http://ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a>" target=3D"=<br>
>>_blank"><a href="http://ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP" target="_blank">ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP</a></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://w" target="_blank">http://w</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ww.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=3D" target="_blank">ww.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=3D</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.scribd.com" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com</a>=<br>
>>/doc/105448105/Dis=3D</a><br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;crete-IP&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cheers,&lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&=<br>
>>gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"<a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a>"=<br>
>> target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.conte" target="_blank">http://www.conte</a></a>=3D<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"<a href="http://nt-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://nt-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank">nt-bas=<br>
>><a href="http://ed-science.org" target="_blank">ed-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http:/=<br>
>>/www.content-based-science.or" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.content-based-s" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=<br>
>>cience.or</a>=3D<br><br>
>><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;g&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0&gt;&gt;--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c--<br><br>
>><br><br>
>>=A0cheers<br><br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br><br>
>><br><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=<br>
>>=3D"<a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D"_blank"><a href="http://www.cont" target="_blank">http://www.cont</a>=<br>
>><a href="http://ent-based-science.org" target="_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>><br>
>>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f--<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
jon<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.content-based-science.org" target="_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><br>